Abortion Is Our Right
3/15/19 - Abortion rights are under attack. And while many are scared, maybe for the first time, the push to control and criminalize women's health care is nothing new. For many Americans, access to abortion as promised after Roe v. Wade never really came. We discuss reproductive justice and ways to get involved in your community with activist Renee Bracey Sherman. And we learn how Chicago women took action to create safe, private ways to access abortion in the 1970s under the pseudonym JANE with one of the collective's members, Judith Arcana.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Destry Maria Sibley
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Don’t let Meghan McCain and Ben Sasse shape the narrative on abortion
Stillbirths in immigration detention
People across the gender spectrum need abortion care
More on Renee Bracey Sherman, the National Network of Abortion Funds, and We Testify, where you can tell your abortion story
More on Judith Arcana’s work with JANE and books
TRANSCRIPT: ABORTION IS OUR RIGHT
[Ads]
(0:55)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda we are telling abortion stories and talking about the state of reproductive justice in America. We're joined by Renee Bracey Sherman, a reproductive justice activist and advocate who is the senior public affairs manager at the National Network of Abortion Funds. And we also have an interview that we conducted on our fall tour last year with Judith Arcana who is a member of JANE, an abortion service, an underground health collective in Chicago that provided abortions before Roe v. Wade made them legal nationwide.
[Theme Song]
(1:56)
Aminatou: Hello Ann Friedman!
Ann: Hi, hi, hi! Good being on the same couch with you.
Aminatou: We're talking about serious things today!
Ann: We're talking about reproductive justice today. We're talking about all the ways that we hate how other people talk about it. Not everyone, you know? A select few people we really love, how they frame this issues and these issues. But, you know, like the media narrative around abortion and reproductive justice has been kind of bullshit lately.
Aminatou: We've noticed an uptick in the bullshit. [Laughs]
Ann: It's like the '90s out here.
Aminatou: Right, it's truly like the '90s out here. It's more than a little concerning. Everybody should believe what they want to believe, like that's fair, but you should believe it from a place of facts. Abortion rights and reproductive justice unfortunately is a place where people love to let facts just fly loosely all the time.
Ann: Wait, you mean the facts are manipulated for political ends?
Aminatou: Ugh, I know and it's so annoying. I'm like just say you want to turn people into handmaids. That's a fact [Laughs] and we're okay. But you know I'm talking specifically about this op-ed the other day that I saw that Meghan McCain and Ben Sasse wrote together. Why those two people have to write an op-ed together, like it tells you everything about evil that you need to know. I was like you don't think that you could do this yourself?
Ann: They're the same type of faux middle ground scammer though. Like it makes sense that they would join forces for this.
Aminatou: [Sighs] I don't know how to tell you this, Meghan McCain is not smart enough to be a middle-ground scammer. She's not.
Ann: I disagree.
Aminatou: She's not. She's just like a person whose father gave her -- you know, gave her access into a world and . . .
Ann: An OG middle-ground scammer. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know. It's just like the scam's not that smart I guess because it's so transparent. Fair enough.
Ann: But she would be on Fox News and not like on The View if she weren't effective.
Aminatou: Ugh, you know, but she is on The View.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And The View does this thing where they're supposed to represent women from everywhere so also that's fine. But Meghan McCain is a frequent liar on that show. But to the heart of the op-ed here is what they say: "There are many complicated debates to be had about abortion and as unapologetic pro-lifers we want to have those conversations based on compassion and science." Can you see my eye roll?
Ann: Uh-huh.
(4:05)
Aminatou: "But infanticide isn't complicated." Say Meghan McCain and Ben Sasse. Infanticide? Are you kidding me? No.
Ann: What is the so-called science that they are citing?
Aminatou: The science of infanticide, Ann, that is based in religion and based in lies. And so what they're really talking about is this controversial bill that Ben Sasse introduced in January that basically threatens prison time for doctors who don't provide medical care to an infant that's born alive during attempted late-term abortion.
Ann: Which P.S. doesn't happen.
Aminatou: Ugh! The act definitely failed to overcome Democratic filibuster in the Senate last month so, you know, the debate is raging. This is something that Meghan McCain talks about on The View which is a huge platform. Ben Sasse is a legislator, also allegedly has a platform. It's truly wild to me that it's 2019 and this is something that's allowed to pass as fact.
Ann: Well it's also like okay, this trick of saying if you pass a law banning something that doesn't actually happen -- because if you talk to abortion providers in the I don't even know what tiny percentage point probability that an infant is somehow born alive during an attempted abortion procedure, they do not then kill the fetus or whatever. You know what I mean?
Aminatou: Right.
Ann: Like that is not a thing. Even in the tiny, tiny circumstance they're talking about that is not a common procedure. And so essentially it's this twist of saying we are going to ban something that doesn't actually happen as a way of trying to convince the broader public that this is a thing that actually happens. It's like me being like "I'm banning unicorns on public streets. No more unicorns in public. The unicorn poop problem is out of control."
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(6:00)
Ann: And it's like that doesn't mean there are unicorns on the street. It just means I have decided it's expedient to, you know, rally people against unicorns.
Aminatou: Right, you know? And the thing is that it is -- it's misinformation that is offensive but it's also misinformation that's genuinely incredibly dangerous to spread.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: There's a reason that the entire medical community came out against that bill. It's not just abortion providers who are against it, it's all doctors because it's nonsense. It's just like another attack on healthcare which is what they're always doing. Just like tired lies and ridiculous, ridiculous misinformation. And it's not the first time this has happened. The reason we made the LOL callback to the '90s is that Republicans have been trying this shit since the beginning of time and they're gaining ground. Not only are they gaining ground they don't get enough push-back in times like these.
Ann: Yeah. I mean I think the other thing that's happening is I'm having a little George W. Bush flashbacks in terms of some of the things that are going on in the federal government under this horrible Cheeto administration's health and human services department. They are doing things like Trump just signed a domestic gag rule barring clinics that provide or refer patients for abortions from getting any federal family planning funds.
Aminatou: [Growls]
Ann: So it's basically like we don't want to help you make decisions about contraception and access better contraception but we are also going to limit your options when you are pregnant when you don't want to be.
Aminatou: Right. It's like the whole push is to get women to get pregnant and to make more families. The thing then everybody hides behind -- not everybody, disingenuous Republicans hide behind the fact that they care about children. If you want to know how much people care about children you should see how they care for mothers. This country has an abysmal rate of caring for mothers and for caring for children who are actually alive. Give the children who are actually alive, give them health insurance and then I'll believe that you care about them.
(8:00)
Ann: Where is the Meghan McCain and Ben Sasse op-ed about people having stillbirths in immigrant detention for example? Where is the outrage about the lack of healthcare for the people who are carrying precious babies in immigration detention? Seriously where -- the hypocrisy just knows no bounds.
Aminatou: Yeah, the hypocrisy knows no bounds. You know, another reason I think that this is . . . I care about this so much and that everybody should is that it also just puts Planned Parenthood in the cross-hairs all of the time. If you can get the population to believe that all Planned Parenthood is doing is killing babies, a.k.a. infanticide, then all you're doing is providing cover to the people who are trying to harm people outside of Planned Parenthood clinics, that are trying to harm people who work there, and it just really pushes this message further that people should be afraid of Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is a healthcare provider. It is as simple as that. It's just very frustrating.
Ann: Well the heart of this debate is the fact that there are some people in this country who don't want to let healthcare providers just be healthcare providers, right? Like if you truly saw abortion care, access to contraception, access to the whole spectrum of things that let people make reproductive choices for themselves which is defined way broader than just abortion and contraception, if you were really interested in all of that you would say it's healthcare, right?
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Ann: Like this is 100% not science which is why things like that op-ed are so infuriating. I'm sorry, the scientists and the doctors have spoken.
Aminatou: Right, and you know it's not just the op-ed. There are just shenanigans at the state level, there are shenanigans at the federal level, and it's pretty relentless the cycle of fear-mongering.
Ann: So to talk about this a little bit more I called Renee Bracey Sherman who has briefly appeared on the show before. She's an incredible activist and someone who works as a senior public affairs manager at the National Network of Abortion Funds. We love abortion funds.
Aminatou: Love an abortion fund.
Ann: But anyway here I am with the brilliant Renee Bracey Sherman.
[Interview Starts]
Ann: Renee, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
(10:10)
Renee: Thank you for having me.
Ann: Before we get into it I would love it if you just gave the quick overview of what you do and what your reproductive justice work is all about.
Renee: So officially I'm the senior public affairs manager at the National Network of Abortion Funds. We are a national organization with a network of abortion funds across the country, over 70 abortion funds that help folks raise money to pay for their abortions. They do everything from raising the money to practical support to doula support, translation services, all of the things across the country. And I work at the National Network of Abortion Funds where we work to support those abortion funds to do that phenomenal work. And I run We Testify which is our leadership program for people who've had abortions, particularly folks of color who've had abortions, queer folks, folks with disabilities, immigrants, folks living at the margins who want to share their abortion stories and really talk about the intersections of our identities. Particularly race, class, and gender identity.
And then for a long time I have just been an abortion story teller where I share my abortion story. I had an abortion when I was 19 and it's something that is really important to me to talk about and to really break down the stigma, really reach other folks of color, particularly other black women who've had abortions, and know that we don't have to be ashamed about our abortions, our decisions, and that we can talk about it openly and honestly.
(11:55)
Ann: Ugh, yeah. I mean we've had you on the show before in albeit I think a pretty limited way. And since you were on the show last time I mean the Supreme Court has changed quite a bit.
Renee: Oh my gosh, yes. [Laughs]
Ann: And I think one reason why we wanted to revisit or devote an episode to reproductive justice and in particular abortion rights is because this shift has many of us feeling kind of unprotected for lack of a better word.
Renee: Yeah.
Ann: When it comes to law and policy. And I'm wondering in your world, the people that you're an activist, you're working with, and maybe yourself, what is the feeling you have right now in this moment and how is it different from maybe previous years when you've been doing this work?
Renee: I appreciate that you separated out reproductive justice and abortion rights because I think a lot of people think about those as synonyms and they're not. You know, abortion rights is obviously making sure that people have the right to an abortion and are able to access it. But reproductive justice is a human rights framework that was coined by black women over 20 years ago because choice -- the framework of choice -- isn't truly accessible for people of color, particularly for black women, because sometimes you don't actually have a choice. And that you should be able to parent a child with dignity and respect without fear of state-sanctioned violence, without government overreach, all of these things. And you should be able to make that decision free from any type of coercion.
(13:40)
Obviously it's really scary. The idea that Roe could fall is terrifying and we already have been in the middle of the impact of Roe not being accessible for a long time. To be honest it never really was something for particularly low-income folks and people of color. This is why abortion funds were created simply because right after Roe was enacted and they legalized abortion anti-choice politicians have been chipping at it every day that they can. [Laughs]
And so abortion funds were created because they decided to pass the Hyde Amendment which means that Medicaid recipients or anyone on a federal health insurance program, so whether that's they're a federal employee or some state employees, they're on Medicare, Medicaid, folks who are in the military and Tricare, folks who are enrolled in health insurance through the Indian Health Service program, all of those folks are not able to use their insurance to pay for an abortion. Therefore it has always been inaccessible financially for those folks. It has always been a money chase. It has always been difficult to find a clinic.
And obviously as other cases have chipped away at abortion access like Planned Parenthood v. Casey which gave us the undue burden test we -- you know, we are just feeling really challenged. And yet I can't help but feel like yes, this is also something that we have been ready for and dealing with for a long time. Because if you do your work focusing on the most marginalized people, the folks who have the most limited access, then what's happening right now you saw it coming and you're not surprised by it at all.
(15:40)
The way that politicians attack communities of color in particular is always how they're going to come for the rest of everyone else. And so I think that this is one of those moments that like I said it feels really scary and it's a moment where we double down on the work that we have been doing. We double down on the work that abortion funds have been doing because Roe has never made abortion access accessible for everyone.
Ann: Yeah, I think about that a lot when I see the classic slogan "We won't go back." Because I really am like well who's the we?
Renee: Some of us never left. [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah, who's the we? And I'm curious about how you are negotiating some people who have not always felt that their right to access an abortion or their right to live a full, expansive definition of reproductive justice has been under threat. So I'm talking basically like people with money, people in states where there are fewer bills chipping away at when and how they can access services, people who -- essentially kind of people not at the margins. What do we do at a moment like this where it's like okay, people who aren't at the margins are filling threatened in a new way and that is in some ways a powerful opportunity but in other ways, you know, everything you're describing to me is sort of like the narrative is getting a little muddled right? This is a first, big, unprecedented threat. And I'm wondering about how you see kind of the opportunity versus the obligation to correct that narrative.
(17:18)
Renee: I think it's that we just say we need all the help that we can get so come on down, you know? Let's get down in the soil. Let's do the work. I think we can't afford to turn folks away from this work but also I think that it's important for folks who haven't maybe been paying attention for a while or haven't been doing this work for a while to really think about whose lead they can follow. Particularly the lead of communities of color who have been doing this for a long time. I think it's really important that we trust the expertise of the independent clinics, some of them who have been around for 50-some odd years or more, to trust the work of the abortion fund leaders who are on the ground. They are on the front lines listening to folks who are calling abortion funds about what it is that they need. They are hearing from them.
And so I think if folks want to get involved please, please join us. I think it's really, really important that we all do our best to protect access. And there is a framework that exists and so trying to make sure that you work within it simply because there's a lot of security precautions that people don't think about when it comes to providing abortion access: the way that volunteers are screened, the way that we are trying to make sure that clinics are safe and that they are protected in a way that feels best for them. How do we do this and respect the folks who have been doing it for a long time because they have a lot of expertise? Particularly for the leaders of color, making sure that you listen to them. People on the ground know what's best.
And I think I will also say working at a national organization this is why I think it's really exciting for us to support abortion funds on the ground. We do our best not to do a top-down approach in the way that we do our organizing. We want to make sure that they have solutions that are best for them on the ground because what works in Boston is not going to work in San Antonio and is going to be different from Oakland which is going to be different from Chicago which is going to be different from Omaha. These are all completely different places and I think it's important that we trust the expertise that's on the ground.
(19:50)
Ann: And how do you suggest someone who's listening to this figure out who those leaders are? I mean is it as simple as go to the database and look up your local abortion fund or your local independent clinic? I mean if you're trying to take a broader view as well are there resources that you would point people to?
Renee: Absolutely. It can be as simple as just going to abortionfunds.org and looking up your local abortion fund and asking when their next volunteer training is. Honestly that's actually how I got into this work. I had an abortion when I was 19 so yes, technically that's how I got into this work. But the way I really got into it was I started volunteering with my local abortion fund, Access Women's Health Justice out in Oakland, and I was a practical support volunteer which is actually something I do to this day. I house people who are traveling from out of state or across the state for an abortion. I give people rides. I've trained as an abortion doula so I've held people's hands during their abortions. And that has honestly been the most rewarding experience for me.
And so if you just call your local abortion fund they often have opportunities where you can either be on the hotline or the cold line for folks who are calling for funding. Some do the practical support. Or you can reach out to your local independent abortion clinic. You can find their information through the Abortion Care Network's website and sometimes they are looking for volunteers. Sometimes it's clinic escorts; sometimes they don't want clinic escorts and so make sure you respect that.
(21:30)
But they often need just volunteers to help take out the trash and do little repairs around the clinic and just basic support. And you don't know how much that means to a clinic. So check in with your local clinic to see if there's something that you can do. I really think that we can get creative in the ways we can support for abortion access. It doesn't always need to look like protesting. It's often just the everyday things that make someone's abortion a more, you know, supportive experience.
I just remember when I had my abortion that I didn't have anyone to go with me to the clinic. My partner said some really nasty things to me when he dropped me off. I didn't feel like I could talk to my parents about it. So if I had had someone to hold my hand in that clinic that would've changed my life and so that's part of what I do. I make sure that I am that person. I'm there for someone else, a complete stranger, and you have no idea how much that can change someone's life. And so if you have the opportunity -- excuse me. [Crying]
Ann: No, no. Go ahead.
Renee: If you have the opportunity you should do it. And I think that that's a great way to get involved. And then of course I wouldn't -- I'd be remiss if I didn't mention our bowl-a-thon is coming up this year. You may see people on social media starting to raise money for our tenth annual National Abortion Access Bowl-a-Thon. All the local abortion funds are doing it. There's like 65 events in 38 states and 80% of our network is participating. And so you can meet folks in your community who want to support abortion access. They're raising money. Most of the abortion funds raise their budgets on this bowl-a-thon money. You can raise money from your network and then you can go to the event and either go bowling or some have -- I know in Atlanta at Arc Southeast they have a dance-a-thon. The D.C. Abortion Fund has a game-a-thon. There's so many different events. So, you know, look up and see what's in your communities so that you can participate.
(23:50)
And the last but not least, if there isn't a local abortion fund in your community and you and some folks want to start one reach out to us at the National Network of Abortion Funds and we can help you do that. Because there's always going to be need to support people who need abortions.
Ann: I want to ask you about a question about staying informed and up-to-date on reproductive justice issues. Because I think something I experience a lot is I will see these headlines flash across my phone that's like "Teenager in Alabama is suing on behalf of a fetus because his girlfriend got an abortion without his consent." Which is wild. Or, you know, I see another heartbeat bill or like a constitutional amendment in another state and all these shenanigans with Health and Human Services and the global gag rule. And I really -- the feeling of trying to stay up-to-date on all these twists and turns that I know as a whole add up to an important, complete picture of what's going on can feel very overwhelming over time.
Renee: Overwhelming. [Laughs] Yeah.
Ann: And I'm wondering if there are issues or words or states or -- is there a filter that you kind of apply for thinking about in this moment this is something you're paying attention to and you would suggest we tune into as well?
Renee: Yeah, it's exhausting. Every day I feel like we just wake up with a new state trying to ban abortion earlier and earlier and earlier. To me an abortion ban is an abortion ban. It's just that simple. It is a ban on abortion. It doesn't matter what week they've made up this time. One of the things I do keep an eye on is when there's something newer and wackier I think about okay, great, how many more states are we going to see that in?
(25:45)
The one that actually is kind of blowing my mind a little bit and I haven't seen a whole lot of information on it is actually that in Puerto Rico they are trying to do a parental consent for anyone under the age of 21.
Ann: Whoa.
Renee: As listeners may remember you become officially legally an adult at 18. I think it's 38 states have parental involvement laws that anyone under 18 must either notify or get consent from one or more parents. You shouldn't have to go to anyone else to have an abortion. If you want one you should get one.
I think it's really exhausting to kind of see like oh, what will they come up with next? Georgia is trying to pass a six-week ban and I think a twenty-week ban. They're doing the same thing that Ohio did a couple years ago, and you're going to see more states do this, where they do the six-week and the twenty-week ban at the same time. So that way when someone signs the twenty-week ban, if the governor signs it, then they can say "Oh look, see? I'm moderate." Which is exactly what former Ohio governor John Kasich did. And he often points to that when he's part-time running for president.
So you're going to see more states doing that to try to be like "Look, we're not so heartless." You still are. But I keep an eye on the bright spots like Georgia state representatives Renitta Shannon and Park Cannon. They actually shared their abortion stories from the floor and in the committee when trying to push back against this bill. And as I was watching all the testimony, particularly these two black women state representatives sharing their abortion stories, all of the folks of color who are fighting against this, it really showed me the racial divide in anti-abortion bills in that when it went to the vote to get out of committee all of the folks of color voted against the ban. And it was all the white folks who were voting for it.
(27:55)
So I think we have to keep talking about the racial justice aspect, lifting up the leaders of color who are fighting tooth and nail to make sure that their constituents have access to abortions. And then I also have to try to focus on what are the good policies that are happening? And so I know that this whole later abortion conversation came about after New York passed the Reproductive Health Act. What they were trying to do -- what they did which is really amazing, they codified Roe. They took abortion out of the criminal code because hi, it's healthcare, not a crime. And they are making sure that folks in New York do not have to travel out-of-state to get a later abortion.
This is critical for folks who are having a really difficult time trying to get an abortion as soon as they want one. Pregnancies can be dangerous sometimes and so if they need an abortion later in pregnancy they are able to get one. And I think that that's really critical.
Right now we're taping this and I'm in my home state of Illinois. I have to shout out the fact that they are trying to repeal the parental involvement law here. And just last year they both codified Roe and they are now making sure that Medicaid covers abortion which for a long time it did not. And knowing that Illinois is this oasis in the Midwest where access is really, really difficult I'm just glad that they are pushing a lot of proactive policy.
Ann: Yes.
Renee: And then of course like states . . . states like Oregon that not only last year did Medicaid coverage but also it's Medicaid coverage of abortion for undocumented folks. And I think that that's really important to be at that intersection. So yes, the six-week bans, they're scary. The, you know, boyfriend suing, how ridiculous. If you actually pay attention to the really wacky bills that they are trying to pass and don't go anywhere you can actually see oh, this is where they're headed. This is where they're headed. And we can actually start to think how do we want to fight back against this?
Ann: I love that. Renee thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Renee: Oh thank you for having me! I just want to say if you're listening to this and you've had an abortion know that you are loved and supported. Everybody loves someone who's had an abortion and we love you.
[Interview Ends]
(30:30)
Ann: Renee and the National Network of Abortion Funds, such incredible work. We love them. The NNAF Bowl-a-Thon is happening imminently and if you want to raise some money for people to access abortion even in these trying times check it out. We'll include a link in the show notes.
Aminatou: It truly is a lot of fun and I say this as someone who hates bowling. It is like some of the best fun I have all year.
Ann: Bowling, a core sport of my Midwest people. It's something I am good at for no reason which is how I know.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I'm just like wow, some things are culturally baked in. I love abortions and bowling so it's a great fit for me.
Aminatou: I bowl for abortion. I bowl for abortion and I have a blast doing it. [Laughs] And I'm actually not the worst so it's always great.
Ann: See, I knew it. You have good aim.
Aminatou: You know, and it checks all my boxes. You know how I'm always like I'm not a competitive person. The bowl-a-thon is when I turn into a monster. It's like I'm trying to raise all these funds. I'm trying not to be in the bottom. It's just it really is like the perfect Venn diagram of all the things that I aspire to.
Ann: Yes.
[Ads]
(34:08)
Aminatou: So when we were on tour last year, Fall 2018 . . .
Ann: So long ago.
Aminatou: So long ago. It's a different era. One of the best things that we do in my opinion is shout-out a couple of girl gangs, historical girl gangs that we have been into. One of the girl gangs that we talk about is JANE, an abortion collective that was based in Chicago. This was a pre-Roe v. Wade underground service that addressed the increasing number of unsafe abortions being performed by untrained providers. JANE performed more than 11,000 abortions and as you can imagine some people's feathers got ruffled. And some of the women who were providing the abortions went to jail and we have this incredible mug shot of this babe in Chicago 1972. And we actually found her! We found the woman who that was. Her name was Judith -- her name is Judith Arcana and . . .
Ann: She's got a great website. She wasn't hard to find.
Aminatou: You have to go to the website if only for her -- the picture. The picture of her is 10 out of 10 fantastic. And so Judith was with JANE in Chicago. She is an iconic feminist and she joined us onstage in our Portland show. And it was really great to talk to her about how a lot has changed when it's come to abortion and also not a lot has changed. And, you know, she's just one of those incredible feminist ancestors that everybody should be so happy that we have. And it's really, you know, it's been really inspiring talking to her about the activism that she's done and what she's currently doing. So here is Judith Arcane.
[Interview Starts]
[Applause]
(35:55)
Aminatou: Hi Judith.
Judith: Hey.
Aminatou: You're kind of a local rock star, huh?
Judith: Thank you. Who knew?
Aminatou: That's the vibe I'm getting. [Laughs] Judith, you've written that JANE was an open secret in Chicago in the pre-Roe years. Even cops would come to JANE if a family member needed an abortion. How did you start working as a Jane?
Judith: I started in the summer of 1970. Or excuse me, I met them so to speak in the summer of 1970 because I thought I was pregnant which would've been a very bad thing at that time both for the potential baby and for me. So I asked around. A friend told me this was the place. I called, had long conversations with this extraordinary woman who said her name was Jane. Turns out that was not the case. [Laughter] Within a couple months I was one of the people saying that my name was Jane. She suggested that I come to an orientation and sign up. She said "I think you might . . ." and she was right, so I joined.
Ann: What did being a Jane entail? Were you just answering phones? Were you actually performing abortions? Talk a little bit about what the kind of experience was, being part . . .
Judith: Sure. The service lasted about four years roughly, give or take, and it evolved through that period of time. So at the beginning it was a matter of one or two women getting telephone numbers of people who had been shown to be by previous experience fairly safe and competent. And that evolved into women learning how to counsel the women who were coming through the service. And then the counselors began to learn more about physiology and healthcare, medical practice, so that by early '71 we had begun to learn how to do it ourselves.
(37:50)
And of course the methods were somewhat different from what . . . those methods are still used but now as I'm sure you all know there are more. All kinds of possibilities. So by the time the service was over we were the clinic -- you know, freestanding, only us taking care of business. [Applause] And you all have got to think about that for like tomorrow or the day after. [Laughter] Just saying.
Aminatou: So was everybody who was a Jane a volunteer? I'm just really curious about how everybody supported themselves financially.
Judith: We were curious too. [Laughter] As it began certainly -- I mean we were this underground outfit. No one was paying us to do it and it was rough. Everybody had jobs of one kind or another. Some were married women being supported by husbands and various other combinations. At some point, I would say 18 months to two years in, the conversation about that very thing began at meetings -- we met once a week -- and we wound up deciding once we were the whole clinic ourselves, money was coming in, although we of course did not charge what the guys did. We charged $100 or whatever you could pay. And this was in a time when people were charging anywhere from one to five thousand dollars for abortions.
Aminatou: Wow.
Judith: They ain't cheap now either, you know? So we said okay, we have this money, because even though it was tiny -- what came in per woman -- so many women came through the service that there was money to buy the medications, to buy the equipment, and to pay us. So now remember we're talking about a very long time ago so the decision was made that for any job you did on a weekly basis you would get $25. So that at one point for instance I was counseling, I was doing phone work, and I was doing medical work so I was making $75 a week in that period which was equivalent to whatever fairly shy salaries would be now.
(40:10)
Ann: You were arrested for this work but you just said that cops would bring people -- this is actually your mug shot.
Judith: Yes it is. Yes it is. [Cheering]
Aminatou: People do love the mug shots, Judith. They love them.
Judith: Yeah. Yeah.
Ann: So I'm wondering how that happened if cops were bringing people there and also if that shifted the way you were providing services or how you felt about what you were doing?
Judith: What happened no one will ever really know but as near as we could tell then, and pretty much we -- those of us who are still alive -- actually believe happened was that there was a particular woman who was coming through the service on a particular day in early May of 1972 and she told her sister-in-law that she was doing this. And she in fact may have even brought the sister-in-law with her, because people did . . . we had a front where people were given the address and they would come to the front. Then we would take them to what we called the place where their abortions would be done.
And so the sister-in-law, this part I'm not so clear on, but anyway may have actually been at the front. But in any case she's the one that called the cops. And she called cops in her district which is not the neighborhood that we ever worked in. So they were not, as we like to say, our cops. Also that time was when the Roe case was coming up towards the court and a lot of people would have liked very much to have this sort of what they thought of as negative publicity, anti-abortion publicity.
(42:00)
So those two kinds of . . . the sister-in-law story and the case coming up to the court story are probably why we got cracked but we'll never really know. And it certainly wasn't the people in our neighborhood, our regular working neighborhoods.
Aminatou: Did that change the way that you started working?
Judith: Well not really. [Laughter] Actually the seven of us -- I was one of . . . well obviously. We stopped, the seven of us stopped working as soon as the bust happened. The rest of the service I think maybe took off a week or two and collected money so that they could send the women, because there were people who had appointments at that time. And they all had to be taken care of. So money was given to them to fly to Washington, D.C. There were at least half a dozen places in the United States that you could get legal abortions including the capitol. And so they were doing that kind of work in the immediate couple of weeks after the bust.
And then the service just quietly picked right up again. But we the seven, because we were in the public eye, it was all over the papers and all of that plus we were searching for a lawyer, we were doing legal education instead of medical education in that summer. But several of us went back to work in the fall. The service continued. It only shut down really after the Roe decision and it didn't even do that right away because we had to, as we did about everything that really mattered of course, we argued. Some people thought we should keep doing it; other people thought we should shut down. Once abortion was legal it was a medical practice and that meant we were practicing medicine without a license. Anyway, a few months after the Roe decision the service closed.
(44:00)
Ann: So for a lot of us who live in places where reproductive rights are still relatively robustly protected and abortion services are still pretty available that reality feels pretty far away. I know that's not the case everywhere in America.
Judith: Indeed not.
Ann: Yeah, and I'm wondering about on a level of just like feeling or conversation with people how that time compared to now and whether . . . I have some then and now feelings that I don't know quite how to articulate.
Judith: My position, my attitude, my thinking about this is that in our present time out here at nearly the end of the second decade of the 21st century what has happened in the United States is that minds and spirits, intellects and feelings have been seriously informed by -- and that's the mildest way of putting it -- the anti-abortion movement which has created definitions and ways of thinking and feeling about abortion that were not . . . that simply were not in the time that we were working.
And in fact a couple times this evening and even in our early conversation before the show we talked a little bit about shame. When I began to write poems, stories, essays that are rooted in my work in abortion I thought well, it's been a long time. I should do some contemporary research. A couple of wonderful people in clinics here in Portland when I asked allowed me to come in, talk with them, and some of the folks who were coming through -- several people, bless them -- let me come in. So there I was again decades later standing beside, sometimes holding the hand of a person having an abortion.
(46:00)
And what I learned was about shame. People were filled with shame. They were ashamed of themselves for having abortions. And I had never seen that before. I certainly hadn't felt it when I had my own abortion. My friends didn't. My colleagues didn't. We had some problems. We knew it was illegal. There were all kinds of hard and difficult and sometimes even scary, terrible stuff. But not this mindset that abortion is murder, that a woman who does it is a killer, that she should be ashamed of herself. And I'll tell you she is and that's not okay. So that's a major -- I hope I'm answering the question you were asking.
Ann: Yeah, yeah. You got it. You nailed it. [Applause]
Judith: It's a major difference. And it was created. It was purposely created and it continues to be fomented by the anti-abortion movement.
Ann: I'm wondering if you have recommendations, because we don't have enough time, I cannot ask you the one bajillion questions I want to ask you about your experiences. I'm wondering if I and everyone else want to learn more about JANE or about other things that you think are important in this vein, what should we watch and read and be aware of?
Judith: To of my -- I have three but two of them are a movie called Our Bodies Our Doctors which is directed by an excellent Portland-based director [Applause] Jan Haaken and you can find Our Bodies Our Doctors online. Of course it has a website. And it features the people who are doing abortions now legally and what they, even though it's legal, have to put up with because of this mindset I was going on about caused by the anti-abortion movement. And also there are fiction films in the works about the abortion service. One of them is completed and is now showing at festivals. It's called Ask For Jane. And it was created by producer and actor Cait Cortelyou and director and screenwriter Rachel V. Carey. And these folks are seriously on the case. [Cheering]
Ann: Judith, where can people find your work?
(48:28)
Judith: Books? Where can you find this? First of all you can easily find them online. Go to my website, go to the book page, click on these book covers -- these wonderful book covers. [Laughter] Look, here's one that's even got the mugshot.
Ann: Judith, what's the URL?
Judith: It's so old-fashioned because, you know, who I am. It's juditharcana.com.
Ann: That's classic. That is classic.
Aminatou: Classic. Classic. [Cheering] Judith thank you so much. This made my whole week. Thank you.
Ann: Yeah. Judith!
[Interview Ends]
Ann: Ugh, Judith.
Aminatou: Judith.
Ann: The thing that I keep thinking about from this interview is the thing that she says about shame and how that is something that has really changed. And I think that's why it's important. I know we started off talking about this op-ed and narratives around abortion, what is a good abortion, who deserves reproductive justice. And I think that is where more so even than state-level legislation that's chipping away at stuff that's where I really see the anti-choice movement as having succeeded. It's like if people who are seeking basic medical care to just preserve the quality of their lives, take care of their existing children, do what is best for them and for their families are stigmatized so heavily that's how people who are against reproductive justice have really won. And I really think that that's why like Renee was saying as well this is all of our responsibility to keep talking about it, to destigmatize it. Check out Shout Your Abortion. Talk to your friends about your experiences with reproductive justice and trying to get what you need. I think that that is really what matters.
(50:20)
Aminatou: Right, you know? And if you're one of those people I think that is listening to the show and you are still -- you know, you still think hmm, this makes me a little bit queasy. Why are people shouting their abortions and why is it a thing that we celebrate? I think that looking into a lot of the resources we point to is useful. And I think also remembering that it is about healthcare. It is about basic healthcare and it's about privacy.
Ann: Shouting is about privacy? [Laughs]
Aminatou: It isn't -- abortion care is about the privacy of women and people who need abortions to make decisions between them and their doctors and not have it be some sort of political referendum for where the world is at. I would really say that if, you know, it's something that you are struggling with that definitely reading more about it is an entry point. And also when you look at a lot of the statistics about abortion people who get abortion are not others. They're literally your neighbors. They're our moms. They're our cousins. They're the women who have taught us . . .
Ann: People voting against abortion rights frankly, yeah.
Aminatou: Right. They're literally the people picketing against us.
Ann: Sometimes, yeah.
Aminatou: You know, they are the girls that you went to college with, the girls that you went to high school with. There's not like a race or a class or a kind of person who gets an abortion and it says nothing about your character and it says nothing about who you are.
Ann: Literally it's only the kind of person who could plausibly get pregnant. That is the only kind of person. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right. That's the kind of person who gets an abortion. And I don't know, I think that really challenging yourself to think why it is such a polarizing political issue that people think they can talk about in a way that is not rooted in science and in fact, and that tells you everything that you need to know. If the attacks that people use against a position that you feel queasy about are based on lies that should tell you everything that you need to know. Shout your abortion if you can and for those of us who cannot shout our abortions totally okay if you can't shout your abortion. And it says nothing about you as a person.
Ann: Yeah.
(52:30)
Aminatou: So anyway we're here to shout about everybody's abortion to get mad at Meghan McCain and Ben Sasse for you. [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah. And I also have to say listening to Renee and Judith in rapid succession also makes me think what is our plan for actually providing services in places where they are currently functionally unavailable even though Roe v. Wade is supposedly still the law of the land and abortion is supposedly legal in all 50 states?
Aminatou: You trying to be a Jane, Ann?
Ann: You know what though? I mean listen, my talents do not lie in the realm of healthcare provision. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You'd be so good though. You would be such a good Jane.
Ann: You know what though? I feel like I could be Jane Backoffice, like the spreadsheets, the let me give you this paperwork to take home.
Aminatou: Jane Logistics call Ann.
Ann: For real though. What would your Jane role . . . I feel like you'd be an amazing Jane. You're really good with like, you know, the nuts and bolts of what needs to happen for some home healthcare.
Aminatou: You know, I would totally get into helping on the healthcare side because I'm not afraid of that.
Ann: I know you aren't.
Aminatou: It doesn't quease me out. But honestly I want to be the person who is fake friends with the police.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: That's what I want.
Ann: You want to be the fixer? Yeah.
Aminatou: I want to be the fixer where the cop and I look at each other and we're like we have to fight in public so people think we're not on the same side but we're running this Harriet Tubman for abortion situation here so let's do this. That's what I want. Jane Frontoffice.
(54:00)
Ann: I love it. I love it. Something about recognizing that there are practical roles to play is what I love about Judith's story too. It's like yeah, thinking about maybe you are not actually greasing some cop palms to keep the underground portion of the service open but using the skill set you have in the service of protecting everyone's access to healthcare. I love that.
Aminatou: Right. And this is also my media literacy plug. If you see these op-eds that are off the chains just lies or you watch these segments on The View and you're not happy about them it's actually within your power to say something. You can write a letter to the editor.
Ann: P.S., women do not do it in the same numbers of men.
Aminatou: Yeah, that's literally what I was going to say.
Ann: Oh sorry.
Aminatou: It just so happens that women do not send enough letters to the editor. So, you know, this is your shot at getting published in a major newspaper and you can also tweet at the shows. My recommendation for The View is the next time they want to talk about medical issues they should probably have Dr. Jen Gunter on the show.
Ann: I love her.
Aminatou: Right, instead of fake doctor Meghan McCain. So it would do such a better service to everybody who watches. It is a sizable segment of the population who watches morning television and it would be nice for them to know what the facts are.
Ann: Right, yes. A sizable population but not as sizable as the population that could potentially get pregnant. So I'm like we have you outnumbered and also think of the majority. Yeah.
Aminatou: Listen, I've got 99 problems but a uterus ain't one. Ah!
Ann: You know what? I am so happy that there is that -- you got that going for you.
Aminatou: I do. I do.
Ann: Silver linings, not uterine linings.
Aminatou: [Laughs] On that note I will see you on the couch again. Hope everybody has a great weekend.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: Bye boo-boo. You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download the show anywhere you listen to your favs, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, our associate producer is Destry Maria Sibley. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.