INTIMATE SECRETS
1/18/19 - Lingerie is more than silks and lace worn only to sexually entice someone else. We go deep on foundation garments: who makes them, who wears them, when, and why. From our own associations around comfort and desire, to the labor, design and skill involved in making intimate garments, to brands that are expanding sizes and shades to fit all bodies. Cora Harrington of The Lingerie Addict joins us with the case for why we all deserve to wear beautiful, comfortable things that fit us, so close to our skin.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Destry Maria Sibley
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
The Lingerie Addict (site + Twitter + Insta)
In Intimate Detail: How to Choose, Wear, and Love Lingerie by Cora Harrington
Where Cora recommends you start your lingerie search:
Her Room (for reviews and fit)
Playful Promises (for range of sizes and styles) - full disclosure: sponsor of The Lingerie Addict
TRANSCRIPT: INTIMATE SECRETS
[Ads]
(1:00)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow and my voice is shot today.
Ann: I'm Ann Friedman and my voice sounds okay but my body feels shot today. [Laughter] I am so excited about the agenda for today's episode. You talked to the incredible Cora Harrington who queen of foundation garments and lingerie is the founder of Lingerie Addict and the author of In Intimate Detail. Pause. We're just pausing in silence and awe.
Aminatou: My eyes close and I'm so happy because I did this interview a while ago and I've been so excited to share it, you know, with the listeners and with you.
[Theme Song]
(2:05)
Ann: How did you come across her work originally?
Aminatou: I definitely discovered Cora Harrington on Twitter because it's like a space that I segregate so much for just it's like news and, you know, politics or whatever and then every other platform is more fun. But I remember somebody had retweeted a resource she had shared about plus-size women and lingerie and I was like what? This is possible on this Babylon platform?
Ann: You were like fastest click possible.
Aminatou: Yes, no, fastest click. So I followed her for this one thing and then it turned out that it was one of the most consequential follows of 2018 for me. Cora is just very . . . obviously she's like the queen of lingerie but she just talked about it in a way that had never occurred to me before. Sure you can wear lingerie for a partner or you can sexualize those items of clothing but they don't have to be at all. And also that lingerie is a really -- it's an important part of fashion, both fashion history and fashion vocabulary, and also just the labor that goes around making lingerie. And so for me it was a real eye opener about something I was like oh, it's just like panties and chemises. And then it turns out that it's actually a very political and personal space and a very technical space. I love it when women teach me things so learning about this really awesome thing from somebody who is so smart has been very effecting for me.
Ann: Ugh, I love that. Before we talk to her though I kind of want to go back and discuss a little bit on last week's episode.
Aminatou: What did you do last week on this episode?
Ann: Oh my god, don't even.
Aminatou: What did you break? [Laughs]
(3:45)
Ann: We've gotten many emails after this last week's episode which is about the Women's March and anti-Semitism and anti-black racism and the politics of marching and what kind of activism is it to even participate in a march. Lots of things like that. Several people sent us additional resources which we will put in the show notes. For example a public letter written by Jewish women of color involved in the march explaining why they remain involved, including some great resources from Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, and some other things to check out. So we will put those in the show notes.
Aminatou: Totally. And we also got my favorite kind of listener email.
Ann: Which is what?
Aminatou: When we talk about something that is already stretching us and somebody is like "Oh, here are more links to read that can help you."
Ann: We both love a resource.
Aminatou: Yeah, we love a resource. We love emails also that remind us that sometimes we don't see the full story. And so the reason why I love this email from listener Emily is that 1) she was very generous and 2) she raised some points that I'm like oh, yeah, duh. We know this but we didn't make it explicit. So the first thing she says is "Linda Sarsour has shown up so well for the American Jewish community and is definitely not anti-Semitic. The facts about Linda Sarsour are often distorted and I wish I heard more of the counter-arguments out there." The reason I like this point is it actually is true. In the record of things . . .
Ann: You love a true point.
Aminatou: I love a true point, you know? I was like people can decide whether Linda Sarsour is anti-Semitic for themselves. That's not the point that I agree with. The point that I do agree with is that she has been at the forefront of calling out a lot of recent anti-Semitism and also has raised a lot of money with a group of Muslim people, has raised a lot of money for I'm thinking about Pittsburgh mainly. And so I think that that's an important thing to know because people are complicated. And then the second point that Emily raises is "Not all Jews are Zionists. There are many American Jews, maybe even a majority, that are critical and see the oppression of Palestinians as counter to their Jewish values. There are Jewish organizations like If Not Now that are dedicated to fighting Israel's oppression of Palestinians. I personally," I being Emily, "personally volunteer with an organization called Bend the Ark because of their explicit focus on fighting for domestic social justice causes. I feel a personal stake in breaking apart American Jewish identity and Zionist causes." So thank you Emily for being vulny and for sharing. I usually have one Internet rule and it is truly never talk about Israel because I'm like this is where all of the explosions come from. I also feel that way because I was a Middle Eastern Studies major and I was the only non -- I was the only black person there but I was also the only not Jewish, not Arab person in my program and so it was fully hilarious where I was like hmm, this is a lot. [Laughter] So it is stretching me personally to have this conversation on here and I just appreciate that it's hard to have hard conversations.
(6:58)
Ann: Yeah, and I also appreciate the generosity of this email in understanding that we were trying to cover so much ground in that episode. Frankly probably too much ground.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: And therefore really clarifying some of these points was either not possible in the time given or was just like we were trying to consider a lot of other things. So I appreciate both this email and some of the additional resources and clarifications and discussion that we have seen around this episode because frankly an hour-long episode is not enough to talk about . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: To talk really holistically about interlocking oppression and its effect on feminist and other movement organizing.
Aminatou: We didn't solve that last week?
Ann: P.S. how many times can we make this joke after we have a hard conversation? Like every episode we have a hard convo we're like "We solved it!"
Aminatou: We solved it. We solved it. We talked about it once. We solved it.
(7:55)
Ann: Whew. And with that let's talk about lingerie. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my god, lingerie. Lingerie is amazing.
Ann: I love thinking about the foundation garment. I mean lingerie is a very femme feminized term to me and I don't actually know the dictionary definition of the word. But when I hear the word lingerie I think like silk and lace and a lot of, you know, kind of femme-associated trimmings and vines, right? [Laughter]
Aminatou: Please have a store called Trimmings and Vines.
Ann: Okay, that would be an amazing store selling sex toys and . . .
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: . . . foundation !!br0ken!!
Aminatou: Oh, I thought you were going to be like you sell food and sex toys.
Ann: Well trimmings and vines? I mean . . .
Aminatou: Trimmings and vines.
Ann: It also sounds like it could be a Harry Potter store, like a fake -- anyway.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: But anyway I do love the idea of a foundation garment. as being anything that you wear underneath the clothing that the world sees that makes you feel comfortable in your body, that maybe makes your clothes fit better, that makes you feel supported in ways both physical and non. That kind of broader way of thinking about those clothes you wear close to your body is one that I really love.
Aminatou: That's true. Lingerie in general brings me a lot of -- it's like one English word that causes me a lot of strife because . . .
Ann: Are we pronouncing it wrong?
Aminatou: I mean we're pronouncing it the English way but that's why it brings strife into my life.
Ann: What would you say in French?
Aminatou: I mean the way to say it is not lingerie, it's [French accent] lingerie. But that's like, you know, it's like [French accent] croissant. I'm fully living that life now so it's fine.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: So that's a weird linguistics tick. So it's funny, you're right, I think about lingerie and foundation garments as two separate things even though the same clothes can either feel like lingerie or they can be a foundational garment. You also brought the phrase foundation garment. in my life. I did not wear -- I'm a person who used to go to church and I still did not wear a slip until I met Ann Friedman. That tells you what Jesus cannot do for you that a good friend can do for you.
(10:00)
Ann: If you're a person that wears dresses I cannot recommend a slip highly enough.
Aminatou: I know. I think you brought a half-slip into my life and you were like "Oh, you need this," and I was like do I? And it turned out that I did. But I point back to that conversation because it was one of the first times that I realized that one way that you can feel more comfortable in your clothes is if you're wearing them right.
Ann: Or wearing something under them.
Aminatou: Right, or wearing something. You know, like me, the queen of commando. But if you are -- just that there's a way to shape your clothing experience that is fully . . . like the shirt before the shirt as Pauly D would say.
Ann: Thank you DJ Pauly D for having an applicable quote to our lingerie conversation.
Aminatou: Thank you DJ Pauly D, the shirt before the shirt. And that had fully never occurred to me. You start thinking about the things that come in contact closer to your body and I was like oh, I can have nicer underwear. And it didn't mean that it had to be expensive. I was just like oh, everything doesn't have to be ratty period underwear. A radical revelation in my life. And also having complicated feelings about that is that the more that -- like for me I'm like uh-oh, this is dipping too close into desire territory and I am not comfortable here.
Ann: Like thinking about what you want to be wearing? Like what kind of underwear you want to wear, dipping too close to desire territory.
Aminatou: Exactly. And it took me like years to realize that, that I was like oh, maybe part of why I don't own nice undergarments is to me all of that is about sex and sexuality and sexualization and I want to take all of that off the table. And also I was like why do I think that? And I think that it's just like conflicting both cultural messages and non-messages. Like the women in my family, the way that I had always understood lingerie is like if it looks good on the floor then buy it. It had never occurred to me that oh, you might just like to wear a chemise or a teddy is a thing that you could write in your journal and at your house. I just didn't know that.
(11:55)
Ann: Wow. In my inherited narrative about lingerie in as much as that was a thing, it was like large white panties flapping in the breeze. [Laughter] On like a lingerie line. Seriously why would you wear anything? Why would you wear underwear for anything but comfort is sort of my inherited narrative of underwear.
Aminatou: 100%. And I think too that once I started, you know -- and then once I was like oh, I'm ready to explore lingerie as a sexual thing maybe, I did not encounter lingerie of my size.
Ann: Right, yeah.
Aminatou: And so it was never comfortable. It was never like ugh, like I'm like what? There's too many straps and things and they don't make this for big girls and therefore I'm not participating in this economy.
Ann: The scam of cup size.
Aminatou: Right, the scam of cup sizes and everything else. And Cora's work is actually great. So the book In Intimate Detail is very beautiful and truly one of my favorite books of 2018. It's illustrated. It is teaching you things and it completely decouples it from that conversation of whose gaze is it for? Whose desire is it for? But also fully I'm a person who really enjoys fashion. I like just everything about it is also inherently very political and that it's not some frivolous -- it's not just panties. It's like actually they are your foundation garments. Like we should talk about this. Having all of that in a book, and in a book that has a different kind of format I think was really, really powerful. She also purposely uses gender-neutral language in the book and that was a very powerful statement of also oh, this whole identity that I have wrapped up into lingerie is actually garbage, you know? And it is a social construct and different people in different bodies experience and want lingerie for different reasons. And so that alone for me was a revelation, you know? And I was like oh. And also she does it in a way that doesn't make you feel stupid. There are areas of life where you feel like I've worn underwear my whole life. Why do I not -- you know, where you can just feel intensely judged or very dumb.
(13:58)
Ann: Wait, you used to wear underwear? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Girl, at one point. At one point. At one point. Listen, god is working on all of us. And I like learning from people who are very generous in how they teach you. That was just very -- it was a very cool experience.
Ann: Ugh, I can't wait to listen.
[Interview Starts]
Cora: My name is Cora Harrington. I am the founder and editor-in-chief of the Lingerie Addict as well as the author of In Intimate Detail: How to Choose, Wear, and Love Lingerie.
Aminatou: Cora I'm so happy that you are on Call Your Girlfriend today. I have been I feel like stalking you on the Internet for a long time and it has been a true delight to watch your blog, the Lingerie Addict, just blow up and to watch you just bloom into this amazing social media expert and also write a book. So it is a true treat for the Cora fans out there.
Cora: Thank you very much. I'm really excited to be here. I love talking about lingerie and helping people learn more about lingerie so this is really exciting for me.
Aminatou: I would love to hear about kind of where you were at when you realized that a lingerie blog would be -- it is a thing that was necessary, and also how you make kind of the editorial decisions that you make. Because I think the thing that draws me and so many people to your site is you don't position lingerie as a tire that people wear for sexual enticement of other people. I know that is a choice you made and so I'd love it if you could talk about that.
Cora: Yeah. So I started my blog ten years ago. I was dating someone -- this was when I still lived in Georgia -- and I wanted to buy something nice to wear for them. And I was searching online looking for advice or reviews or some suggestions on where to shop or what to buy and I couldn't find anything. There was nothing out there that was written for someone who was brand new to lingerie like me who was interested in the subject but just had no idea how to shop for it.
(16:05)
And it turns out that there were lots of other people looking for exactly that thing where even from the beginning the focus was to talk about the beauty of lingerie and a beautiful lace, a beautiful embroidery, a new designer or brand that we just discovered and sharing that excitement as opposed to focusing on bedroom or sexy attire.
And I realized as I learned more about lingerie, as I learned more about intimate apparel, that not only was this this huge and fascinating world that had received very little coverage but also that there was a way to talk about it that I felt no one else was really addressing. I want to help people think about lingerie the same way they think about any other aspect of fashion, and I think part of doing that is making lingerie more accessible to them. And not just more accessible in terms of size or price point which are both very important but also more accessible in terms of understanding the language of lingerie. Because intimate apparel really has its own vocabulary, its own set of terms and definitions that aren't shared with the rest of the fashion world. And I think that can be very intimidating to people because I remember being very intimidated by it.
Aminatou: Oh I'm still very intimidated by it. [Laughs]
Cora: Yeah there's so much. And I found though that once people know a little more, once they have a sense of what those words mean and how they apply to them, that not only do they feel more confident and empowered they also feel more excited about lingerie. And that's really what makes me happy. I want people to feel just as excited about this world as I do.
Aminatou: Why do you think that it's so important that lingerie is talked about in the same conversation as we have about fashion and other clothing?
(17:45)
Cora: Well there's this idea, especially in the States, that lingerie is just bedroom attire, that it's just for sexy times. And the assumption kind of within that assumption is that it is for a cis woman wearing it for a male partner in a heterosexual context. So we've attached this story, kind of all this weight and all this baggage to lingerie that I think is really unnecessary because lingerie is just underclothing. It's bras. It's panties. It's pajamas. It's chemises. It's slips. It's stockings. It's tights. It's pantyhose. It's all these things we already wear and people will start to think of and start to understand their undergarments as just -- in the same way they think of their shoes or their handbags or their dresses or what they wear to the office. Having that perspective on lingerie is part of that larger accessibility question but it's also part of getting people to take intimate apparel and what goes into it seriously. All lingerie is hand-made. Somebody has to sit at a sewing machine and stitch all these delicate pieces together, and I feel like when we reduce lingerie to just a bedroom story, to just a seduction story, there's a lot of things that that particular story just has no room for. And I think that does a real disservice to everyone.
Aminatou: I'm curious about how you keep the blog inclusive and make sure that you're promoting body-positive attitudes instead of profiting from it, and you have some really interesting tactics too that you -- you know, you use so people don't feel like they're pressured by advertising when they read on your site. And I say this as someone who is specifically plus-sized, because I'm pretty sure that's how I found you. I was looking for something and I was like this is the most thorough review of lingerie that is here for somebody who has a bigger body. But I know that whenever that happens I have always felt the pressure of well, this person says this is good so I automatically have to buy this thing because this is the only option I have.
(19:48)
Cora: My goal is to help connect people with their options and help people get to know and understand lingerie better. And that perspective, that idea, just informs and underlines everything I do. When we like a product on TLA we say we like it and I want my readers to know that's a genuine endorsement. That's an authentic like for something. And similarly when we don't like something we say that, but that's not the same as saying okay, you should never buy this. You should never support this brand or buy this product. We're simply saying we don't like it for these reasons.
And what I want people to feel when they come to my site or when they interact with me on social media or wherever they find the Lingerie Addict is there is space in this world for them, that there is someone somewhere making a product for them. And I see my role or my job in that interaction as connecting my readers with those brands or designers or products or boutiques so they can find beautiful lingerie that fits them and that makes them feel beautiful. I mean it's funny that you kind of bring up the money part and the body positivity part because I don't feel like a lot of the ways that we talk about lingerie are necessarily profitable from the perspective of the intimate apparel industry. We're still considered very much an outlier and an outsider for the larger intimate apparel industry. And a big part of that is because of our inclusive approach to lingerie. I don't really have much use for the kind of traditional tropes of aspirational lingerie and fashion photography.
I just want people to feel in at least some small way that there is someone welcoming them to lingerie. There is someone who wants them to find something beautiful, who wants them to feel comfortable and confident and like there is something out there for them.
Aminatou: Now I want to talk about the book because I feel like, you know, this inclusivity thread runs through the book as well. Like you chose watercolor illustrations to keep it inclusive. You use gender-neutral language throughout the book. Thank you. I noticed. I appreciated it. You talked about lingerie for people with disabilities and for people with fibromata and things like that. So I'm wondering did you get any push-back when you were putting this book together?
(22:08)
Cora: So I feel really lucky in that my publisher and my editor, they came to me and they said "We want to publish a book about lingerie and we've done our research and we think you're the person to write it for us." They were very specific in that they wanted me and my point-of-view and my particular voice, and I know that's not an opportunity that happens very often so I feel just very lucky. And when I was putting together my proposal I included from the very beginning that I wanted to have illustrations, that I wanted to use gender-neutral language, that I wanted to be inclusive for trans and non-binary people, people with physical disabilities. And from the very beginning from that proposal my publisher and my editor are both like "Yeah, this is great. We're totally onboard. We want the same things." And so I never received any pushback at all from them, just lots of encouragement, wanting to make sure that the final version of the book aligned with the vision that I had from the very beginning.
Aminatou: And what is the feedback you're getting from your readers about it?
Cora: They've been really happy. I was I don't want to say worried or concerned but I was aware that especially in today's political climate there might be pushback from people regarding the gender-neutral language and regarding the sections on trans inclusivity. There hasn't been that but there has been from people who've noticed a lot of support, people feeling included who maybe didn't feel included in lingerie before. And I wanted to write the book in a way -- I like that you noticed the gender-neutral language because I think it also shows how easy that is to do.
Aminatou: Absolutely.
(23:45)
Cora: It's not really obvious. It's not really dramatic. It's not the sort of thing you'll probably even notice unless you're looking for or are aware of it but if you are non-binary, if you are trans, it's something that's going to matter to you. And so I also wanted I suppose to show in some ways that there is another way of talking about lingerie. There is another way of talking about these garments to help people feel included. And I felt that this book was a way to show one way that that could be done.
Aminatou: You also pose a lot in all of the pictures of beautiful lingerie that are out there. Was that hard for you initially or did it feel weird?
Cora: I mean I think it always feels a bit strange to post photos of yourself in your underwear on the Internet. [Laughs] And I know when I started I did feel more trepidation, more hesitancy than I do now. But a lot of that was because I knew that once those images were out there there was no kind of coming back from it. And that's tied up a lot I think in the stigma that surrounds lingerie especially in this country. So for me the hard question was more so okay, if there are pictures of me in my lingerie on the Internet that pretty much means I'm not going to be able to get a normal job at all now. I have to be really committed to the Lingerie Addict now because I can't just go back.
But at first my shoots were just a way to dress up, to have fun, to experiment, and then in recent years I have tried to push them more in the direction of editorials where we're telling stories. And I think again trying to show a vision of lingerie that we don't usually see, I would love to see more lingerie fashion editorials in mainstream fashion magazines. I would love to see more lingerie fashion editorials on different sites. But we don't really see a lot of that.
Aminatou: We also don't see a lot of black women, you know?
Cora: Right.
Aminatou: And I think that for me that was what was probably the most striking thing. You always think these are small things that don't matter and then I'm going through Instagram or I'm looking at your site and I'm like oh, when was actually the last time that I have seen black women modeling the garments that I want to wear? And I'm 33 and it always shocks me that I still have these firsts. So I'm sure that that is also part of the story here.
(25:55)
Cora: Well and I want people to feel like -- I feel like I keep going back to this, like this world is for them and there is something here for them. Because I know when I'm looking at campaigns or websites, especially for perhaps the more luxurious pieces, the more high end pieces, you never see them on darker skin. And I want to if I can be a part of changing that.
[Music and Ads]
(28:55)
Aminatou: Can we talk about some lingerie myths?
Cora: Yes!
Aminatou: Because I feel they're out there and they're so strong. The first one that comes to mind for me is that every woman is wearing the wrong bra size. [Laughter] Can we just unpack that a little bit please?
Cora: Yeah, yeah. So I have a lot of problems with that statement on a lot of different levels. The first one is I don't think it's very encouraging to start off a conversation about bras or bra fit from the perspective of you're doing it wrong which is what that statistic says. It's like "80% of women are wearing the wrong bra size," which is essentially I feel like saying to people you're too silly and you're too dumb to know what works for you and your body. I don't think you can get people to love lingerie from a place of condescension or assuming that we know more than what people do about their own bodies. And there's also the fact that there's not I feel like a good resource for that statistic. Usually it's a bra company or a lingerie company or a bra fitting boutique that's put out that stat and I'm like uh . . .
(29:52)
Aminatou: Or Oprah. Or Oprah. That's where I heard that for the first time. [Laughs]
Cora: Well when you learn more about the lingerie industry and about bras then you know there's so much inconsistency between brands for example, so much inconsistency in fit. Even for the same person across the month you might wear a different size before your period than you do after. What we know about sister sizing and how if you have a squishier torso you might want a smaller band, if you have a broader, more muscular torso you might want a bigger band, just when we know all these different variations and permutations that go into fit . . .
Aminatou: Wait, is sister sizing the one where they're like oh, you might be a 38DD but you're also a blah blah blah triple C when you have two different options you can have?
Cora: [Laughs] Right, so the sister size . . .
Aminatou: This is how you can tell I know nothing about buying a bra.
Cora: So like the sister size for a 38D would be like a 36DD. You'd be going down a band and up a cup size. And what that means just as an aside is that it's the same cup volume because your bra size is essentially a volumetric measurement.
Aminatou: Wow, science.
Cora: But it's made for a slightly different build or a slightly smaller or larger torso. So that's why you can't say things like "Oh, I'm a C cup or I'm a D cup or I'm a G cup" because without the number associated with that letter you actually have no idea what the size is because the volume measurement for a 38DD is much different than the volume measurement of a 30DD.
Aminatou: What is the hopeful way for those of us who are true civilians when it comes to this stuff to just get better education about it?
Cora: I really appreciate the bra blogging community. It's a great way to see how products look on different bodies, styled in different ways, to have people talk to you about "Oh, I tried this brand and here's what I liked, or I tried it and here's what I didn't like" in a way that we don't I think really have a lot of access to. I also have a private Facebook group that's for women and femmes only called Lingerie Addicts and a lot of people share reviews of products that they've tried in there which is a great resource. I like the bra reviews on Her Room. I know some people have had issues especially when it comes to returns for that boutique but they have a very rich review archive which I think is amazing.
(32:05)
Also checking reviews on Amazon can be good. The caveat there is you might not be sure like the language people are using to describe their bras or their fit but you can still maybe get a sense of if okay, this brand is generally true to size or maybe it's generally shallow. And Nordstrom also has good bra reviews. So I mean it's . . . I feel like that's a lot of different places to send people.
Aminatou: I know. So what you're saying is unless you have your own tape measure at home and you are committed to doing it every day you need to have a good baseline for how you shop for a bra.
Cora: I don't think there's really any shortcut to the trial-and-error portion which is probably really frustrating for people because I know that I have people ask me, they're like just recommend me a bra in this size that will fit me perfectly and I'm like I can't. I can't say try this brand or try this style or try this size and it will definitely fit you exactly the way you want because there's so many variations in our bodies and so many variations in our breast shape and breast placement and what we personally find comfortable that I just don't think there's any way to kind of skip over that trial and error portion.
The upside is that when you find that perfect bra you can find a lot of them. You know what's good for you and you can start to compare the features or styles that you like of that bra with similar features and styles in other bras because it is in some ways like learning a language and there isn't a way to avoid doing that in-person. Especially with bras you have to be able to try it on to get a sense of how it feels and fits and looks on you.
Aminatou: What are other lingerie myths that you hear all the time that drive you nuts?
(33:48)
Cora: Big myth is that bras prevent breast sagging. This is such a terrible myth and I think it does so much to make people feel awful about their bodies. Breasts come in a wide range of shapes and sizes and densities and firmnesses. I don't know if firmnesses is a word but we're just going to go with that. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh we're 100% going with it.
Cora: And people will feel really angsty and really ashamed and almost traumatized and feel like they've done something wrong with their body or their bras or their breasts because their breasts are perhaps more pentula-shaped or their breast tissue is softer. That's just -- that's genetics. So much of how our breasts look is tied up in genetics and really has nothing to do with when we wear bras or how often we wear bras or the types of bras we wear. And I feel like that myth in particular just does such a disservice to people and creates so much unnecessary anxiety when the reason our breasts look the way they do is either because that's just in our DNA or it's because of other factors like maybe pregnancy or our weight gain or loss or growing older or smoking. But it has nothing to do with how often or how regularly that you wear a bra so that's one myth I really would like to see die.
Aminatou: I wish you could go and tell eleven-year-old Amina this because it would've saved me a lot of heartache.
Cora: Oh, another myth? Oh, that bras shouldn't be that expensive because they're only like two pieces of fabric. I see this a lot. That's really unfortunate and it does a real disservice to the people that make our garments and I think that particular mindset or position is also tied to the fact that most of us don't make our own clothing and we also don't know anybody else who makes their own clothing so it's really easy to kind of gloss over all the labor and all the work, and specifically all the kind of fine detail and expert-level work that goes into making something like a bra.
(35:42)
As I mentioned earlier all of our lingerie is handmaid, everything except for hosiery which is knit. But no matter if you're getting your underwear from Aerie or Target or you're getting it from La Perla and [0:35:55] it's all hand-made.
Aminatou: I did not know that, wow.
Cora: And there are people who have specialist lingerie design degrees, they're called contour fashion degrees. They're essentially engineers in silk who create patterns and kind of put together this three-dimensional framework or structure that supports our breasts and they do it from these flimsy, light materials like lace and tulle and gauze and silk and all these other things. But that takes a lot of measuring and a lot of iteration and a lot of design to essentially get a bolt of lace and transform that into a support structure to kind of hold up and lift and shape your bust.
And so what you're paying for when you're paying for a bra isn't two pieces of fabric; what you're paying for is all that engineering and design work and all the time it took to sit at the sewing machine and put those 24 or 36 or 40 pieces that go into a bra, to put those all together by hand.
Aminatou: What is your take on washing your undergarments, bras specifically? Because when I asked this in my friend group we almost had a civil war. I found out some people wash like never; some people wash all the time. I'm interested in an expert take.
Cora: So I think it depends. For something like bras it's usually best to not wash them after every wear which I know is scandalous. I'm sure someone will be like "Oh my god, Cora, that's so nasty." But every time you kind of wash and dry a bra you're destroying the elastic a little bit. Even with the most delicate detergents or soaps they're going to have some wear on the elastic. And especially if you're doing things like putting your bra in the washing machine or heaven forbid the dryer you're going to ruin it even faster.
(37:50)
So the reason you want to wash your bras a little bit less than perhaps you think is because it actually helps to preserve the life of your bra. So obvious exceptions to this: sports bras, you want to wash those after every wear. If you have a skin condition like eczema for example you may find that you want to wash your bras more frequently just because you'll be having body oil and things rubbing off on your bra that you don't want to re-irritate your skin. If it's summer and you're sweating a lot you probably want to wash your bra more often. But you can wear a bra a few times usually before you want to do a hand wash or a machine wash on delicate cycle then hang it up to dry.
Aminatou: Okay, let's step away from bras. Let's say that you are somebody who knows nothing about anything that's not a bra and panty set and you are very curious. What's a good gateway into exploring this world?
Cora: Lounge wear! That's my favorite because you can find lounge wear in a range of sizes and at a range of price points and it tends to be what I feel like is very size flexible but also something that people will be more open to wearing because you can wear lounge wear at home; you can wear it on vacation.
Aminatou: So to be clear lounge wear is like a chemise?
Cora: Yeah, chemises, robes, pajamas, night shirts, caftans. All of those are tied up under lounge wear.
Aminatou: Wow, I did not know caftans are lounger wear.
Cora: Yeah!
Aminatou: We are the premier podcast destination for caftans. This is great.
Cora: I just bought a caftan from Christine Lingerie that I wore for a recent vacation to New Orleans. It was silk with like this bird cage print and it was so comfortable. But I also like lounge wear because it's great if you want to do a lingerie outerwear look. It's also really accessible for that as well. I like to wear my robes as little light jackets out and about. I wear my camisoles out and about. You can wear some slips out and about as dresses. Within that larger lounge wear category vintage slips are I think the ideal gateway to trying vintage lingerie, trying lounge wear, experimenting with the idea of beautiful lingerie because vintage slips tend to be less expensive. You can find them for really cheap on Etsy and eBay. You can find them in a pretty wide range of sizes. Because they're vintage the stitching and the fabric quality tend to be very high quality so you can get beautiful things like crystal pleating and lace applique and mesh insets and just kind of all this really beautiful stuff that would be wildly expensive on modern-day lingerie. But because it's a vintage slip and there are vintage slips all over the place it's really affordable on those. And I also think robes are a great item if you're new to lingerie.
Aminatou: Oh?
(40:28)
Cora: Because they're the sort of thing where in terms of cost-per-wear you can really get your money back from a beautiful, well-made robe and you might find yourself reaching for it all the time at home, when you're at a friend's house, you have somebody coming over. They're just a great item to get used to the idea I think of lingerie and of specifically buying and wearing something for yourself that makes you feel good.
Aminatou: I love that. My last question to you is about coverage of lingerie. We get so many press releases that are always like "This person has an underwear line now."
Cora: Yeah.
Aminatou: "This person is the most inclusive brand." Or like "This person has 178 bra sizes" or whatever. And I realize that I actually don't know what any of that means so it's interesting because I will then see coverage of it and reporters run with the press release all the time.
Cora: Yeah.
Aminatou: You know, there's a brand in particular that I'm thinking about that always says they're the most inclusive brand.
Cora: Yeah, I know what you're talking about and that press release is incorrect and I was really upset that so many media outlets rushed to reprint it. Yeah.
Aminatou: Right. So I'm wondering what bugs you about lingerie coverage and, you know, for the people who cover fashion and clothes that are maybe listening what should they be looking out for?
(41:45)
Cora: I would say be very wary of any brand that claims to be the most, the first, doing something no one else has ever done before. Your first reaction when you hear any kind of claim like that should be that that's probably not true because just by virtue of the fact that we're talking about bras and there are only so many ways to lift and shape a breast what they're claiming to invent was probably invented like 100 years ago. [Laughs] And that it's okay to reach out to . . . I know there aren't very many lingerie experts I feel like but it's okay to reach out to them and to ask, even if it's off the record, kind of what our perception or what our feelings about a press release are if we might know something that isn't being expressed in that press release. Because there isn't a lot of information out there about lingerie. There aren't a lot of people who focus specifically on lingerie and its design and its trends and so I think it's easy to just kind of assume that what you're being told from a brand must be the truth because you don't know any better. You don't have any larger context.
Aminatou: I was really sad to see that the Blue Stockings Boutique closed.
Cora: Yeah.
Aminatou: Which it was the first I think LGBTQ+ focused store in the United States. Everything they offered was amazing. But also I understand the economic and market realities of that as well.
Cora: Yes.
Aminatou: If we say that we want to support inclusive brands and queer brands and then we don't actually buy from them this is what happens.
Cora: Right. And what that's going to look like is also buying things that are more expensive than what you can find in Target and Walmart and JC Penny's. And I know the founder of Blue Stockings, Gina. Her mission was also to buy from ethical brands, brands that she knew were paying their workers fairly and manufacturing their products fairly. And that in and of itself is going to add dollars to the final amount. And so I think just kind of remembering -- not guilting anybody for being able to afford what they can afford because things out here are hard for all of us but there are going to be things that are different if you're a small boutique, a niche boutique, or if you're focused on things like diversity or inclusivity or ethical manufacturing that will add to the prices that you see for a shop like Gina's or like Blue Stockings Boutique.
(44:05)
Aminatou: What are brands that we should be looking for or smaller boutiques that are in that same brand, or perhaps queer-owned? Definitely source their materials well and are places that we should be proud to spend our money at.
Cora: Playful Promises is a big one. Full disclosure they've been an advertiser of my site forever but they've done a lot of work in the last few seasons to expand their size range, to expand it thoughtfully in terms of both plus sizes and full bust and making their products and their core range the same across that size range. So I feel like they really listen to their customers. They're really invested in going even further with their size expansions. And they're here for the long haul. They're not just doing size expansion because they think it's trendy; they're doing it because they really believe in making the lingerie industry a more diverse and a more inclusive place.
Chromat is a queer-owned lingerie/fashion swimwear brand that I think is doing really great things. The owner Becca, very visible, very open, very transparent about what goes into being a small brand and the costs associated with doing things like size expansions or making things ethically. I also think her products are really phenomenal.
Aminatou: They're gorgeous.
Cora: Hanky Panky is another great brand that was one of the first to actually expand into plus sizes way before it was making headlines and also one of the first to offer new tones for their lingerie. They had new -- a range of skin tone nude thongs and chemises and camisoles and things like that. Another brand that is committed to ethical production and manufacturing, they make everything in New York. They pay their workers fairly. I think everybody who works for the company has equity in the company now. They would rather be smaller than they could be if it means they can still treat everybody right and I think that's such an important thing.
(46:05)
And then maybe Nubian Skin because they really put the concept of nudes for all, and especially on the industry level, on the map. And a lot of brands that were completely disinterested in making deeper tone nudes because I would talk to them about it and they'd be like "Mmm, nah, that's good," started doing it after Nubian Skin and after the response to Nubian Skin. So I think she's also someone who's made -- the changes she's made to the industry over the last few years are ones that people take for granted now but they were really significant and moved a lot of things.
Aminatou: Cora, when do you feel at your . . . how do you know you feel at your best when you are wearing your lingerie? Like you specifically.
Cora: When I feel like the best version of myself, when I feel comfortable and confident almost to the point that I'm not even thinking about what I'm wearing because it just feels like it's a part of me. And I feel like that's the goal that I have to be, hyper-aware of what I'm wearing. If either the fabric is uncomfortable or it's so fussy that I have to be worried about tearing it or tripping over it then I can't really relax into the experience and enjoy it. And so the best lingerie just makes me feel like the best version of myself.
Aminatou: I love that. Cora thank you so much for joining us. Please tell everybody where they can follow all your work.
Cora: Yeah, so the name of my site is thelingerieaddict.com. You can also find me on Instagram at @thelingerieaddict and on Twitter at lingerie_addict. And you can find my book at most booksellers and that's it. Thank you so much for having me.
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: Cora!
Ann: Ugh, the best. Okay, I want to ask before we sign off what has been the greatest undergarment/foundation garment/lingerie revelation of the past few years for you? Of recent memory.
Aminatou: Ooh.
(47:55)
Ann: Like about what you like or about what you like to wear or maybe just something you learned.
Aminatou: I think the revelation is I can wear lingerie and be very comfortable. Like I just didn't know that that was possible at all and I've been exploring some -- I have re-hauled my underwear drawer. Everything is pretty much brand new. And every single thing in that makes me feel amazing and I was like I just didn't know that was a feeling that I could have. And also for somebody with very big boobs I didn't know I could have fun bras and I have fun bras again. But you know also I am mostly not wearing bras anymore both as a political statement and as an I am just tired of life statement. So my rule is if I wear a bra it's usually probably the only thing I'm wearing. It's like the bra is the shirt.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And also it's got to be a banger, and so that's where I'm at. What about you?
Ann: Well it's funny, I was thinking about this. I think -- okay, so I think I can trace these ideas back to the fact that I sort of sexually came of age in the Girls Gone Wild era of the early 2000s.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Which is to say -- or like the female chauvinist pigs era.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Where the idea that certain underwear you wear or certain looks come with political implications which I think is definitely not as true or as straightforward as it was portrayed then. And so I had a real bias against the thong where I was like . . .
Aminatou: The t-hong?
Ann: The t-hong. I was like you will never catch me in a t-hong because . . .
Aminatou: Catch me in a t-hong. [Laughs]
Ann: Because I was like oh, this says something about how I think the world will view me or how I want the world to view me. And in fact -- well first of all I think I was wearing them a size too small which don't do that. But I also think that when I finally started wearing them, and I can't remember what the thong catalyst was, I was like oh my god, this is actually really comfortable because my butt jiggles a lot and my butt will eat other kinds of underwear if it doesn't fit right. Like my butt crack is a hungry monster that is eating the back of so many pairs of bikini-cut underwear. But a good thing is just like hanging out in one place. And so actually for exercise or certain types of moving around or certain cuts of pants that I wear I'm like this is the only way to go. And I have found certain brands that I am very loyal to as well, but that was a real revelation. And I'm like fuck you Girls Gone Wild for keeping me from this knowledge of what I like to wear. Fuck you sexism.
Aminatou: The patriarchy, man.
Ann: I know!
Aminatou: Patriarchy is such a scam. It's like you end up hating things that actually might could be good for you.
Ann: Exactly. I know. Like listening to boys in my class say disparaging things about visible whale tails made me think that like the whale tail . . .
Aminatou: Whoa, that's a thing?
Ann: Whale tail. Oh my god, have you never heard that phrase?
Aminatou: I've never heard that before.
Ann: Maybe that's just like sexist Midwest boys that I grew up with.
Aminatou: Yeah, that's wild.
Ann: Yeah, I internalized some totally dumb narratives about what it means if you wear a certain kind of underwear and it kept me from living my truth of just like a stable, well-fitting thong. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Listen, I bought a t-hong for the firs time like this week.
Ann: What?
Aminatou: I haven't tried it on yet and I'm feeling some real . . . I'm like if you buy underwear you have to keep it whether it fits or not, and I hope that we all feel that way otherwise I am not buying underwear ever again. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh, you mean you can't return it to the store?
Aminatou: Yeah, you can't return it to the store whether it fits or not. You've just got to eat that because . . . [Laughs]
Ann: I mean I'm picturing your butt eating it. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know. But I'm just hoping this is a rule that all of society is okay with because otherwise I'm getting full-body chills.
Ann: I don't know how to tell you that you can't trust all of society with a rule like this. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know Ann! I know and I don't want to think about it. But anyway so I bought this t-hong and I am hoping that it fits but also I was like oh, I fully still haven't tried it on and it's been a week so I'll let you know how it goes.
(52:00)
Ann: Oh, I am definitely . . . I love that this week's episode update from last week is like serious conversations and resources and next week I'm going to be like "What's happening up your butt crack?"
Aminatou: Listen, because you know me, my favorite kind of underwear -- like my favorite -- is a high waist, high cut.
Ann: You're queen of the highest of high cut.
Aminatou: Like that . . . I feel my most powerful. I feel supported. I feel safe. The people around me who see them feel safe. We all feel safe and supported.
Ann: [Laughs] I like the idea that I feel supported by proximity.
Aminatou: I'm like we're all . . . I'm like when I am . . . this is me at my best. And so I was like my levers and my colleagues all benefit from this. Everybody feels safe and supported. That's my standard underwear. And so when I deviate from that it's like a lot and the t-hong is a serious deviation.
Ann: Well you know you can get an extremely high-waisted t-hong.
Aminatou: That's what I bought. I bought an extremely high-waisted t-hong and I haven't tried it on yet and I'm like well what if it doesn't fit? Now I'm stuck with this t-hong because I don't believe in returning underwear. I do this for the people! [Laughs]
Ann: Also I'm like wow, can we get the rights to the Thong Song because that is the only closing music that we need right now.
Aminatou: You know it is Sisqo's best work.
Ann: It is Sisqo's only work that we are going to mention here right now.
Aminatou: The entire album, I think it was called Enter the Dragon, Welcome to the Dragon, I can't remember. Let's look it up. Unleash the Dragon. It was called Unleash the Dragon.
Ann: Oh my god Sisqo's aesthetic is totally back. [Laughter] I'm just realizing how relevant this album cover is.
Aminatou: [Laughs] So I recently watched the video to the t-hong song and obviously wild sexist but also wild fun. Like Thong Song, I'm sorry, if you've got to save one misogynist song it's Thong Song for me.
(54:00)
Ann: That is a bold statement I am not willing to co-sign right now.
Aminatou: Listen, I'm just saying if you had to save one misogynist song. All the songs are misogynist. Come on. Come on. Sisqo though?
Ann: Sisqo also has an album called Return of Dragon. Not The Dragon.
Aminatou: Yeah, because I think his nickname was the Dragon.
Ann: Oh.
Aminatou: It's like who cares?
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: But yeah, his aesthetic is very strong.
Ann: That's what I'm saying. I'm like this is very of the moment.
Aminatou: He was always biting Missy Elliott's aesthetic, you know? He was like the small platinum Missy misdemeanor Elliott. But you know what? Sisqo, wherever you are, I hope you are thriving and also reading a book about women. Can we send Sisqo In Intimate Detail? This conversation is officially off the rails.
Ann: I'm like dying over here.
Aminatou: I will check back in about the t-hong next week. [Laughs]
Ann: Okay, but let's make that happen.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet my little underwear monster.
Ann: Oh, see you in the underwear drawer. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download the show anywhere you listen to your favs, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, our associate producer is Destry Maria Sibley. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.