Friends with Babies
8/16/19 - Binaries aren't good for babies or friendships. We discuss angst around the "gender reveal" party from the blogger who popularized it. How to avoid judgement around a friend's parenting and their choice about whether to become a parent. Crucially, how to weather change when a friend has kids and you don't. Hint: communicate!
Also, untested but good-smelling mosquito repellents. And, we have brand new merch + don't forget to buy tickets to CYG Live!
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
Episode image by Anna Pruzhevskaya
LINKS
Inventor of gender reveal parties weighs in!
How to hang out with your friend who has a kid
Childfree By Choice by Dr Amy Blackstone
No One Tells You This by Glynnis MacNicol
TRANSCRIPT: FRIENDS WITH BABIES
[Ads]
(0:12)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda we are talking about babies and binaries, namely the rise and fall of gender reveal parties and some questions about the divide that can open up between two friends when one becomes a parent and one does not.
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.
Ann: Hello, hello.
Aminatou: How's it going?
Ann: We are both okay. I feel like that is the fairest -- the fairest assessment. We are . . . we're here.
Aminatou: We're here. We're still here. [Laughs] That's great.
Ann: The most you could hope for some weeks truly.
Aminatou: It's true. It's true. I have like a summer party mosquito bite situation happening because I always forget to wear bug spray in the summer and also I've been -- do you know this lie? All the people who say Skin So Soft is good for mosquitoes I don't think that's true.
Ann: I don't believe that for a second. I use this stuff called Bug Soother that I purchased in a small town in Iowa or from this small-town manufacturer in Iowa that I love and it smells very good and is all-natural and it is not 100% like no mosquito bites but it dramatically reduces the ones I get and mosquitoes love to eat me.
(2:00)
Aminatou: I know. I was like this or I'm going to just have to start taking baths in DEET. I already don't leave here alive so might as well die from the DEET. It's bad.
Ann: You know, has anyone recommended to you patio oil? Someone recommended this to me recently.
Aminatou: No, what's patio oil?
Ann: So you know that brand Jao? They make like a refresh -- Of a Kind sells it.
Aminatou: The refresher that doesn't refresh? Yes. The refresher that doesn't refresh me.
Ann: It's basically just a rubbing alcohol. It is like a natural -- like I keep it in the glove box for a post-thrifting hand refresh. Like it is not like a Purell -- it's for people who are like I kind of want to clean my hands without water but I don't want to play the Purell game. Anyway they make this thing called patio oil that is a body oil for lack of a better word that is mosquito-unfriendly and I would say it is . . . again it's not like DEET level effective but if you're going to slather your body in something and you want less mosquito bites I've heard it recommended but I have not tried it.
Aminatou: Okay, I'm going to look into this. Bug Soothers and patio oil. Okay.
Ann: Yes. Bug Soother from Columbus Junction, Iowa. Patio oil from wherever the hell Jao is from.
Aminatou: [Laughs] The home of Jao.
Ann: The home of Jao.
Aminatou: Well speaking of Jao -- not speaking of Jao at all -- I love that we're just mentioning a brand for free. This is how you know everything is not capitalism here. But speaking of capitalism we're going on tour.
Ann: Yes! This fall.
Aminatou: We are going to Detroit, Denver, Austin, Houston, Texas and, Ann, what's the fifth city we're going to?
Ann: Toronno!
Aminatou: Yes! My girl said it right! [Laughter] You can buy tickets at callyourgirlfriend.com/tour and we're really excited to meet you and your besties so come meet us, hello.
Ann: Hello, it is going to be so fun. The other big announcement we have for you today is there is fresh, fresh merch in the CYG shop. Some items are selling out already and we are moving to restock them because this stuff is so cute. It includes a denim cap that says the scam is structural which is really like the only message about scammers that I want to publicly put on my body and endorse. Then we have some really cute new Shine Theory merch, a t-shirt for the first time ever.
Aminatou: Yes!
(4:20)
Ann: And a Shine Theory Nalgene water bottle that is like the perfect combo of woman or person who likes to stay hydrated and also practices Shine Theory which like a core demo for us, well-hydrated people who practice Shine Theory.
Aminatou: Nalgene, I'm going to have to dig out my carabiner. I love this.
Ann: [Laughs] Call Your Girl, Call Your Carabiner like . . . [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my god, that was such a moment in college. It's like you had the carabiner. You had the Nalgene. You put it all -- maybe just at my college but it was definitely a moment.
Ann: I did not have one. I think I deemed it kind of too sport which is LOL, nothing about hydration is too sporty. Everyone should be doing it. But it was a moment.
Aminatou: Only you. You're like water, sports. Yeah, but now Nalgenes are that interesting intersection of it's sporty people. It's missionaries. It's people who like to rock climb. It's, you know . . .
Ann: Wow, that is definitely the Texas perspective. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Hydration is for everyone. Please, if you see a missionary they are wearing Chacos and they have a Nalgene with a carabiner tied to something. Always.
Ann: What about Peace Corps? Same crossover, right?
Aminatou: Listen, Peace Corps is just missionary work for another kind of god.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: It's the same kind of work.
Ann: Okay, well get in on Nalgene culture if you want to with the Shine Theory one.
Aminatou: I love Nalgene culture. Are you kidding me? Hydration is lit. It's for everyone.
Ann: Listen, we are trying. I mean I'm obviously going to drink out of mine so I don't even know. This was a past point-of-view I'm talking about. My present is fully embracing the Nalgene. Anyway, and you can . . .
Aminatou: I'm so excited about it.
Ann: You can get all this stuff at shopcyg.com. Shopcyg.com.
[Music]
(6:15)
Aminatou: Today's a pack day so let me hit you with my favorite recent news. You know those gender reveal parties that mainstream terrible people have?
Ann: Gender reveal being like if someone is pregnant and they have gotten a test done so they know the gender of the fetus inside them and they have a party to announce the chromosomes of this fetus? Yes.
Aminatou: To celebrate -- right. And it's very upsetting because 1) how lame and 2) how problematic. This is crazy. You know, so I will say I went through a phase where I watched a lot of them online because they're very ornate and I'm like who are these people? This is not great.
Ann: Sorry, you watched gender reveal parties like on YouTube?
Aminatou: Yes Ann, because gender reveal fails are amazing when you're high. It's just like -- you know, people love to share the ones that they think went right. But remember those huge fires in Arizona? Started by a gender reveal fail. This has consequences. So anyway . . .
Ann: This sounds like crimes. This is what it sounds like.
Aminatou: It's true. And the other thing you also notice all the time when you watch them on YouTube is there is a palpable disappointment a lot of times when a girl is announced.
Ann: What?
Aminatou: Yes. Like a lot of dads get mad. That's like an entire genre of gender reveal. The idea is fully demented. The reason I'm excited about this news I'm going to share with you is 1) somebody invented gender reveals. Like this is fairly -- it's like promposals, it's like they've only gotten more ornate, but it started somewhere and . . .
Ann: You're telling me there's a Typhoid Mary of gender reveals?
(7:55)
Aminatou: There's a Typhoid Mary of gender reveals. The woman who invented gender reveals, rather she popularized them to be clear because I think that people have had gender reveals in some way, shape or form forever, she's a blogger. She was on this interview with NPR where she was talking about kind of how her thing started. You know, she had a gender reveal party for her own kid and it was just like a cake that was filled with pink icing so that the family could find out, everybody together, they were having a girl. And the NPR interview was really illuminating because, you know, she's very much like oh this was a very innocent thing. I like to throw parties. And she didn't think she was going to catalyze an entire industry and culture that just essentially subjugates children to dehumanizing binaries before they escape the womb.
So she had had her gender reveal party, the ones for her daughter, in 2008. So this trend has been around in a very visible way for a long time. They're everywhere. There was even one on Blackish. It's like why would you do that? But anyway she very recently explained in a Facebook post that she had "a lot of mixed feelings about her random contribution to culture." You know, she thinks the whole trend is absurd and it's really painful. The article that was picked up from her 2008 doing this that was published in Bump Magazine -- ugh -- was framed, like it was framed in her house, and now ten years in she's like this is not amazing. And I love a follow-up. I love a trend story follow-up. And then the plot twist of the whole thing, I'm just going to read it, she says "Plot twist: The world's first gender reveal party baby is a girl who wears suits." So I love this. I love this plot twist so much. I love that her child is growing up in a home where they are just letting -- you know, they're just letting the kid be a kid and express themselves however they want but this trend has been very damaging.
(10:05)
Ann: Yeah. I mean I also appreciate too she said a few things about the way her child has really been a teacher for her in understanding the nuances of gender and the non-binary nature of gender and that is what inspired her to sort of step away from -- not really disavow but basically say oh, as a pioneer of this trend I've really thought about it harder and maybe you should too. And I appreciate that as well.
I mean as we kind of framed this it's like a lot of people who are I would say critical thinkers about gender are like oh my god, why are people out here having gender reveal parties? And I just love that it's like the call is coming from inside the house. [Laughs] One of the people who had really popularized this as a social thing that you do, as an aesthetic, like the whole what is inside the cake or whatever which is also on a metaphorical level I'm just like ugh, gender-wise we don't care what's inside the cake. You know what I mean?
Aminatou: Mm-hmm.
Ann: We care how everyone chooses to ice it themselves once they're like, you know, a fully-formed being in the world. I appreciate that someone who was sort of embracing this as a trend is now able to be critical of it because in many ways I think that's more powerful than maybe someone like you and me who would've been right out of the gate dismissive of a practice like this. You know, sometimes the messenger matters is what I'm trying to say and I think her kid sounds awesome.
Aminatou: You're so right. Her kid sounds awesome. I say this as someone without children but I am deeply inspired by kids who are just themselves and thank you. Let the babies be the teachers.
Ann: Yes.
(11:50)
Aminatou: And I want to come out with this information, like I obviously do not believe in gender reveals but you know that if I have a child we are having a Zodiac reveal for sure.
Ann: Oh my god. I . . .
Aminatou: I'm like I want the world to know. Like if it's a Gemini baby we are burning the house down.
Ann: Okay, can I ask a question about that?
Aminatou: Tell me.
Ann: As someone who is not really on Team Astrology I thought that in order to have a full understanding of what's happening astrologically you need to know a birth time. So how could you have a Zodiac reveal when the child is still in utero?
Aminatou: Well you know some of their astrological profile. So you need the birth time to -- I mean technically the child has to be born because if they're born on a day that's like a cusp it's like it doesn't matter. But generally you would know. I mean I'm going to wait for the baby to be born then we'll have a whole thing. Are you kidding me?
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: I just think that everybody in their bios should have their sign. I just think that that's -- you know, millennial culture is just that. It's like asking your parents what time you were born for nefarious purposes.
Ann: Oh my god, yeah. Or if you're like me your mom texts you every year at the exact time that you came out of her vag.
Aminatou: Aww.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Ann, your mom is the best!
Ann: Ugh, and if she misses it she's like "I thought of you today at 3:43 p.m."
Aminatou: Good thing you weren't born at 3:43 a.m. [Laughs]
Ann: I mean, listen, I feel like the fact that it's a comfortable late afternoon time is one reason I always get the text. But it's funny, I'm like okay, so what are the other things? What would I actually care about as a reveal party? I mean I am always interested in asking my friends who are parents what is your kid into this week? Because the rapid turnover in interest for children is something that I love.
Aminatou: Yo.
Ann: I'm like okay, what is this? What is this moment's obsession? I am way more interested in that than something that is supposedly per-determined. I'm much more interested in making a story out of the tiny little nuggets of info that I have about this developing human.
(13:55)
Aminatou: It's true, it's true, it's true. But, you know, shout-out to the babies, may they keep teaching us.
Ann: Oh my god, shout-out to the babies. Have we ever really talked about children? I feel like some guests on this podcast have told anecdotes either about their childhood or about their experiences becoming parents or having a partner become a parent, things like that. I don't feel like we have ever substantively tackled questions of being adjacent to children who are growing up on this show.
Aminatou: It's hard because I'm the child I know, you know what I'm saying? [Laughs] So I talk about myself a lot.
Ann: Oh please, if children were all as capable as you I would have like 20 already, okay? This is . . . you cannot even play with that.
Aminatou: No, I don't think we've even tackled kids in a real way in this podcast. I mean for obvious reasons, right? We don't have kids and it's not great to talk about other people's kids on your podcast. [Laughs]
Ann: It's true. It's true.
Aminatou: We have a lot of really cool kids in our lives I have to say.
Ann: I mean I have recently hit a very palpable tipping point that a friend of mine refers to as the going out of business sale where many, many of my peers are rushing to have kids before a perceived window of biological opportunity closes. I'm sure that window is different lengths for every body. But yeah, I think at the current moment there are eight different people in my life who have either given birth within the past year or are currently pregnant. It's a lot.
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean it -- it's a lot. I think for me it's interesting. It happens in waves, you know? And so I'm at the wave where . . . because a lot of my high school friends have kids and the last year has been a lot of the college -- like my very close college friends had kids. In like one year many babies were born. And I was like oh yeah, this wave is like . . . this is real. It's very, very, very real. It's also great because it means I only have to keep up with one kind of present, you know what I'm saying? [Laughter] I was like we are in zero to three right now. We're in zero to three. I can do ten to thirteen and I can do zero to three. You have a six-year-old, it's going to be hard for me.
(16:15)
Ann: Oh my god. It's funny because I was talking to a friend recently who also keeps a gift drawer at their house. Are you a gift drawer person?
Aminatou: Ann, I have a gift drawer specifically for children. I'm like a witch in a Norwegian tale.
Ann: Okay, so this is where I was heading with this where it's like my gift drawer used to be a lot of candles I would buy on sale or it would be like oh, when you see something really cute and you're like this isn't for me but the right person will present itself. I'm just going to buy it. Or I thrift something that I'm like this item cannot be passed up. That's kind of it used to be 100% that and then . . .
Aminatou: Wow, I have greatly benefited from your I thrifted something for someone and now I'm sad about where this tale is going. Tell me.
Ann: No, no, the tale is that the real estate in the gift drawer is a lot of things for babies now. A lot of zero to three gifts I've got to say. And I'm fine with that but really there are these very tangible markers in my life right now in terms of my community and the people I care about where I'm just like wow, babies are part of that world now in a very real way. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know. It's like one minute we're out here making mistakes then next thing you know there's children. And I'm like we've got to grow up, and they're not even my kids.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Yeah, it's interesting. It's really interesting. I like it. I have to say I like it.
Ann: I have very mixed feelings about it. I think not mixed feelings in the sense of how do I directly feel about my friends' children. All of the ones that are old enough to focus their eyes more than a foot I like them no problem. You know, when they're really, really little I'm agnostic. But it's more just like I feel like there is a little . . . there's a temptation that I think is maybe enforced culturally that is not just coming from within to sort of segregate into like team kids and team no kids and specifically team never having kids and team on the path to have kids. I hear this kind of subtly referenced from people who would fit both of those descriptions in my life and it always makes me a little bit sad.
(18:18)
Like I know I've talked a lot about friends who have had kids fairly recently or who are currently pregnant who feel sad about feeling like they're joining a new team. Like no one wants to feel like they're leaving a community or joining a new one if they love the people in their lives. And so I haven't fully articulated where it's coming from or anything but I do see this binary happening in really subtle ways in my social world and I don't like it.
Aminatou: I mean I would say that it's not subtle at all actually. It's quite glaring. And as we discussed at the top of the hour the binary is dumb so don't be doing binaries. For me at least it comes from a societal inability generally to just -- people to talk about what they want and need. And so it is much easier to have kind of your views about family and children or whatever, like keep that very privately while making bold pronouncements about what you think or want without really interrogating them out loud.
I just think that that stuff is hard, right? It's like there is a lot of societal pressure around having children and family. It is considered like a market of adulthood, right, in a way that is kind of dumb. But at the same time it's like people who want children, and especially women who want children, you shouldn't feel ashamed about that. Having children is great. Having a family is lit, like organizing your family however you want to. Where I chafe at it is when -- you know, when people are told this is the only way to be an adult or this is the only way to . . . there's only one kind of way to have a family or whatever. I'm like this is all stupid. Also a lot of people are child-free on purpose and that is also a perfectly valid way to live your life. I just wish that we had more communication around what it means to have or not to have or to want or not to want children in our communities in ways that actually acknowledge that it's okay to talk about these things and it also has implications for your communities whether you have or not have children.
(20:20)
I'm thinking a lot about the year I got my hysterectomy is probably the year that most of my friends had children. And that was very -- that was like a kind of emotional whiplash that I had not anticipated. Like one friend asked me very specifically, like said "Hey, what does this feel like to you?" And I thought that was an incredible kindness. Everybody else was kind of tiptoeing around it without actually saying anything to me and with this friend it's like I remember the day so clearly and I remember thinking like yes, you saying this to me is so much more important than how I actually feel because now we have a new line of communication about a thing that is maybe hard or maybe not hard for me.
Ann: I think that communication is such the right way to think about this issue because a lot of the negative aspects around like drawing a clear boundary come from ideas about -- assumptions about how other people's lives are, if they are dealing with a really different set of challenges. And I think like your friend being able to say I am not only thinking about my own experience this year or this big change I'm undergoing but I am seeing and respecting that you are also experiencing something really big this year and I'm just going to ask you about it to me is the heart of it. It's like being able to kind of stay in that dialogue and keep things complicated rather than kind of assuming oh, your life is super easy because of XYZ or you don't feel any kind of conflict because you've decided this other thing.
(21:50)
I think any place where people are feeling some tenderness or insecurity themselves it becomes -- and I see this with myself -- very easy to translate that into assumptions about how friends who have made a different choice or are living a different kind of life are feeling about that.
Aminatou: Right. Like I'm telling you I think about that question all the time because I think it is the most important question anybody has asked me in the last two years. It's also the kind of thing where I feel that everybody feels grass is greener on the other side.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: And I very much fall on the man, the human life is just hard. It's like breathing oxygen and being a conscious person and trying to have relationships with people of any kind, that shit is hard. Everybody's life is hard in some way, shape, or form. But also a thing that frustrates me a lot is seeing the ways that we police each other's choices and sometimes we do that in very inadvertent kinds of ways.
I watch my mom friends for example be people who are -- I see that choice and I'm like wow, this is hard. This is a hard choice that you're making. Pregnancy is hard on the body. Pregnancy is hard on the career. Pregnancy is hard on your own self. It's a stage of life that some people have to go through in order to have children, right? You can have children in every kind of configuration.
But I watch that and then I also watch society tell them yes, this is the hardest job that anybody will ever have and this is a thing you should do and yet nobody provides them any support. You know, there is -- in the United States there is no support for mothers. I feel very confident saying that as a bold statement.
Ann: There's negative support. It's adversarial. It's not even just not support; it's like actively making things harder for parents, yeah.
Aminatou: Right. We're all living in the world. Like oh, yeah, women have been doing this for millennia so it's fine. And I was like no actually it's not fine. It's not fine that pregnancy is hard on women's bodies and puts women's lives in danger, particularly black women and women of color. It is not okay that once you have children there is a financial burden on you to find someone to take care of your kid so you can go back to work. It's not okay that we live in a society that tells parents that these are the choices that they have to make and then doesn't provide them any kind of real road map for how do you do that and yet we're all doing this.
(24:10)
And so I think that it just really reinforces to me this idea that to be a parent means that you have to suffer for your children, you know? And I'm like no, the government could get involved and some of this shit we could figure it out, right? And also I watch other people who really want children and cannot figure out a way to organize their lives. There are no policies that would help them do that. Then they're also the people who have a hard time having children because of infertility and we -- we shame them and we ostracize them and it's such a journey that you have to go through by yourself. And all of that to me, it's connected in some way where I was like wow, we really reinforce this message that family is important but we don't provide any support for creating your family.
Ann: Yeah. I remember a conversation several years ago now with someone who I kind of knew professionally but at the time I think she had just had her second child. I forget how we got on the subject of judgment, judgment of parents, but also people who are parents judging each other. This kind of whole circle that we're talking about now. And she made this comment where she was like yeah, people who are in an intense identity formation process are often both very defensive and quick to judge others.
And I think about that a lot not just in terms of people who are newly-identifying as parents or perhaps want to identify as parents and haven't been able to actualize that but also people who are newly-identifying as not going to be parents in this lifetime. And whatever that identity might be this is one that, you know, there are a lot of stereotypes associated with, there's a lot of expectations associated with whatever it is. And I don't know, I guess there's something about that frame that really, really helped me of understand that this is where a lot of that judgment comes from because there's no support for any of it.
(26:08)
Aminatou: Yeah, you know? And I also think there's also I feel we don't have grace for ourselves and grace for each other because you can have all of this intellectual stimulation and feeling about your ideas about family and what you want to do but the truth is it just hits differently on an emotional level. And also people are allowed to change their minds, you know? You could be someone who didn't necessarily want to have kids or you're ambivalent about it and then you want them. You can be someone who has children and feels very, very, very conflicted about it. You can be someone who has kids and actually you hate it, right? That's not a thing that you can judge people for. It's actually going through the experience is very different than intellectualizing the experience. And also as human beings our circumstances change, people change their minds all the time, and people are challenged in different ways by choices that they have made.
And so the idea of just, you know, judging people one way or another or even judging yourself, it's just -- you know, it's not realistic. [Laughs] And it just . . . it's such a, I don't know, I feel sometimes the kids conversation can really be the third rail of the subway. You know, it's like do you want them? Do you have them? Where are your kids going to school? You know, what do you mean you don't want them? Like oh, I'm so sorry you can't have them. There's so many -- we're all generally smart, compassionate people but I have really seen it devolve to a very bad place when everybody goes to their basest instinct in this place.
Ann: Ugh. Well let's take a little break and then when we come back we're going to answer a question that relates to all of this stuff and friendship and the chasm that can open up between two close friends when one of them finds themselves with a partner and a kid.
[Ads]
(31:40)
Aminatou: "Dear Aminatou and Ann, here's a friendship dilemma I'd really like to hear your thoughts on in a future episode if you might consider exploring it. I think this is a common challenge for many people. Basically how to best continue strong friendships between single and newly-partnered friends and between non-parenting and parenting friends. My experience is that chasm can open up between two friends when one finds a partner and/or has a baby. I'm a 37-year-old woman. I desperately want to find a partner and have kids and I'm dating but I haven't found my partner yet. The friendship dilemma is between me and my friend. She and I met in our early 20s right after college when we both moved here and we were inseparable for over ten years. We lived together, shared everything, were each other's plus-one to everything, and were basically platonically married. I bet a lot of people hearing this story assume that our relationship wasn't truly platonic but it actually was.
Then a few years ago she met her partner. They moved in together, got married, and had a baby and things changed a whole lot between her and me. Of course I am very, very happy for her and I'm truly so glad she found her partner and at the same time I'm really struggling to navigate the situation. I'm still grieving the loss of our extremely close friendship. In many ways it was like a breakup. I feel like I was replaced by her partner. I guess that was bound to happen when either she or I found a romantic partner.
Sometimes I find it really hard to listen to her talk about her husband and baby because I'm so sad I haven't yet had my partner and found a baby. Yes I do realize I could raise a child without first finding a partner; I'm just starting to explore that possibility." Good for you. "My friend and her husband are trying to get pregnant again and of course I want that for them because that is what they want for themselves and at the same time I'm afraid for the moment when she tells me she's pregnant and I have to act really excited as if I'm not also deeply sad that I'm not pregnant and feel very far away from that life. It's not just an issue with this friend.
For example I also find it hard not to be invited to getaway weekends with her and other friends where a few years ago I was invited to such getaway weekends because these are now getaway weekends for couples and their kids. My friend and I have talked about this occasionally but it's very hard to talk about. I think we both are sad that we're not nearly as close as we used to be. I don't even really have language for this. How do I fully describe the problem? I would say that it's a struggle that she and I are trying to be friends across different stages of life where she is partnered and a parent and I'm not yet but want to be, but I don't really like that wording. Stages of life implies that there is a linear sequence and everyone goes along that same path which of course isn't true.
(34:15)
The best wording I've come up with is that she and I are trying to be friends while currently doing very different things with our lives. Is there a term for this? I certainly don't mean for this to be all doom and gloom. I have a wonderful life. I'm healthy. I have a great job and a great family and lots of joy in my life. I have a truly amazing community of friends and although many of the people I'm closest to live far away and my friend and I do still love each other I'm very grateful for all these things and I understand things change. That's life. But this is an ongoing struggle for me and I don't really know what to do about it. I wish I knew of something to do differently to navigate it better."
Ann: Ugh, I have so much compassion for this person and so much love for the care and investment that both of these people are putting into their friendship. Just like on a baseline level the fact that they've tried to talk about it, the fact that they're both still there. I feel a lot of feelings about that.
Aminatou: This is really hard. It's a really hard one and it's especially hard if you're trying to address it in many ways and you're not finding that something is taking. It also feels incredibly relatable actually. Just like oh, yeah, there's a lot in here. There's a lot, a lot, a lot in here. You know, like the friend who finds a partner and then life is different. The friend who finds a partner and has a baby and now life is different. The component of oh, you were in a group friendship with people and now that they have children the weekends have become children's. The weekends have become ones that you are no longer invited to and things like that.
(35:50)
And it's interesting. I think the thing that it's making me think about the most, at least in my life, I have friends who are partnered and who are parents who never make me feel this way and then I have friends who make me feel this way. It's really hard to put your finger on what is -- why does it feel different in one case and not different in another case? Like what's the thing that's actually the thing? It's not the fact that your friend has a partner and they have children. This person has stated many times and I believe them that they're very happy for their friend, you know? And so it's not some sort of oh, I'm just jealous my friend is in a different stage of life.
I think it is very true that -- you know, there are things we say with our words and things we say with our actions that make people feel alienated and things that we do that don't. And so it's just . . . it seems impossible almost.
Ann: That's exactly where I was going to go with this because it's one thing to speak in high-level terms like we are both living different kinds of lives right now and it's another to really talk about some of the details like this letter writer does. She mentions those weekends, right? Like someone is making a choice. Her friend who is partnered presumably is making a choice not to invite her to getaway weekends as often or she has this note where she says we were each other's plus-ones to events all the time.
And it's like well, you know, just because you're partnered doesn't mean you have to take your romantic partner all the time as your plus-one. You could still in theory opt to be your friend's plus-one or bring a friend as a plus-one. There are all these small choices that are contained within her letter and I think the problem that I run into when I think about this is less high-level we're doing different things and more really granularly we're doing different things. And I think it can be helpful to be like okay, you know, just because maybe the world expects me to bring my romantic partner as a plus-one to my work event why does it have to be that way?
Aminatou: Right.
(37:50)
Ann: Or just because . . . I mean there's a lot of digging that you can do beyond just the facts of oh, yeah, I am now devoting more time to a romantic partner or a child. But I mean I would really encourage the friend in this situation for example to think about more minor choices, like more everyday choices that she is making to maintain this friendship.
And I think it doesn't . . . you know, there is a certain level of awareness that when one person in a friendship or both people in a friendship go through a big shift there could potentially be less time for each other. But it also doesn't have to be the case that there is a total breakdown of the everyday activities that made that friendship what it was. And I think being a little critical about that and saying we actually are not going to assume that just because socially speaking the expectation is your husband is your plus-one to everything, like that's not enough. That's not okay. If you really want to invest in this friendship as a top-tier life relationship then you need to be treating it that way in terms of your planning and how you make time for it. And so I do find myself wondering if when they've talked about this they've kind of talked about it at that specific level or whether they've just kind of lamented that things are different now, you know?
Aminatou: Right. And I think that's what I was going to say about the part we talked about that it's really hard to talk about. That tugged at my heart because I'm like I . . . you know the times when you try to talk to someone and you're like "I think we talked about it but we can't quite figure it out." I think, you know, with something like this you have to push through the awkwardness and through the pain. It's not great. I hesitate to give this advice because I struggle with this as well. If your friendship with someone is going to end you should probably try to do everything that you can to make sure you had it all out, you know?
(39:42)
And so if it's already heading to a bad place the awkwardness of like "Hi, I really want to in detail talk to you about how I feel bad," that's not the thing that's going to end the friendship. And so finding a way to push through the awkwardness, it's like well, you know, if you've tried talking about it in person and that's not working then maybe write them an email or write them a letter, you know? Or find another avenue for saying to them exactly what you told us in this letter, you know? Because I think sometimes that's the difference as well. They don't quite know all of the details or they -- you know, or there's not a time to process it all together.
But I do think that my overwhelming feeling for this person who is writing in is to not feel ashamed about the way that you feel because that thing of like I'm very happy for my friend but they're at a life stage that I'm not at, that's true in a lot of scenarios. It's obviously way more emotional I think when it involves children because it actually involves hormones. You know, it doesn't make you a bad person to think that or deficient in some way, shape, or form and it's a tough thing to hear, right? And it's a tough thing to feel.
But I think that for the sake of all of our relationships it's probably a good thing to hear. You can feel something is not right with your friend but you kind of cannot articulate what it is and hearing what the hard thing for them is sometimes I feel is the key to unlocking a lot of the feelings about the hurt. But it's just, you know, this one is tough. It's really -- it's really tough and it's really sad but I always err on the side of overcommunicate even if that's not what the other person wants to hear. Because at the end of the day you've got to do it for yourself.
Ann: Yeah. And I think also I like the way this letter writer is critical of the wording stages of life implying that there is a progression. I really think about problems like this as going both ways and therefore the solution going both ways. It's like there is now things that you were once very aligned on or had in common you don't have in common anymore. And so what the friendship requires to stay a friendship -- to stay a strong friendship -- is that you both account for those differences. And I think where sometimes I get frustrated is when it's implied that it is the job of only one person to account for that.
(42:05)
And I think a recent example, there's an article in Healthyish about how to maintain friendships with a friend who has relatively recently had a kid which on one hand I think is amazing. I'm like yes, more transparency about the mechanics of how do we stay in touch right?
Aminatou: Right. Schedules, food.
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: Like what do we -- can I come visit you today, right now? What do we do?
Ann: Exactly, all of that stuff. But I admit to feeling kind of frustrated by this article because it does not really get at the two-way street nature of maintaining a friendship. And I understand for example having a brand new newborn is an all-consuming activity and you are not going to be going to a casual movie with your friend a couple nights a week or whatever. But I also think in a more big picture sense both parties have to find a way to remain invested in a friendship for it to remain a friendship.
And I think that this is directly related to what you were saying earlier about there being no support for parents but I don't believe the burden of finding a way to maintain a friendship through a big change like becoming a parent should fall on a person who doesn't have kids. Like I actually think that both parties need to be open about their shifting needs and they need to be able to discuss things like oh, guess what? You know what, you are finding time to go away for the weekend. Why is that something that couldn't also involve our friendship? Or why is it that these discussions are framed in terms of how do I be happy for you as opposed to how do we both learn to really ask inquisitive questions about each other's lives?
And I think that two-way street point-of-view also, to your point about releasing some shame about this, acknowledges that it is hard for any friendship that was formally as close as the one this letter writer describes to overcome a big change like this. Like this is just . . . it is just hard stuff.
Aminatou: It's hard.
Ann: Yeah.
(44:00)
Aminatou: It's really hard. And I think too that like, you know, the feeling that I often get in a scenario like this even if the person who has kids is not telling me that is just this overwhelming feeling of your life -- my life and my choices are not as valuable as the life and choice of people who are partnered and have children, say. And I think that that's something that you . . . unless someone is explicitly saying that to you, which a lot of times they're not, you should actively be pushing back against that but you should also be verbalizing that that is what you're pushing back against, you know?
Because again there's so much judgment about this stuff, like it comes from every corner. Like it's really interesting to me that among certain kinds of people who are like us where you push this narrative a lot about we're a community and we're family and we do all these things, it's like well guess what? Families get new people in them all of the time. Sometimes they're like small babies; sometimes they're bigger babies; sometimes people get married and you get in-laws. Family dynamics change. This idea that because you created a family or a community that it's not going to change is actually very absurd. You watched that in your own life growing up so why would we not think that?
And I think I try to err on the side of how do I maintain my boundaries over what makes me happy and makes me feel valued in this family unit but also have an overabundance of generosity and welcome the new people in our family? Because these people are not going anywhere. [Laughter] This is how life is. And I think you are so right about the newborn situation. Giving people grace for when they are going through a new situation, not saying that any of these things are the same, but for me I'm just like well if your friend gets injured you make arrangements about that. What's so nuts about making arrangements for your friends who are new parents in this temporary new state of what they are supposed to be doing? And then we all recalibrate.
(46:05)
But I think the only way we can do that again is if we acknowledge that our family is changing and our dynamics will change and it's probably something that we both have to learn how to be around, right? It's frustrating all around for everyone and it's especially sad when they're relationships that were built on so much love. It's like are you kidding? This cannot be the thing that destroys the family.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: Because if I'm honest the small babies, if they're cute, I'm super into it you know? But like I love a toddler. Like watching kids get personalities and fully become themselves, I was like this is truly the gift that the parent friends give you is you get front row viewing of how a human is formed and shaped and it can be a lot of fun. It can be a lot of fun. And I'm like at the end of the day they're not your kids so you get to have all the fun and then they go home to somebody else's house. [Laughs] That's a thing that I really enjoyed .
But I just . . . I just keep coming back to what does it mean to just make room and space for your relationships to change, you know? Sometimes it's a new partner. Sometimes it's a new baby. Sometimes it's illness. Sometimes it's, you know, name a thing. Relationships change all the time and this is a change that is fairly common, fairly life-shifting and monumental, and we could all be more resilient to accommodating it.
Ann: Totally. And I think that, you know, the flip side is also true which is that ultimately each person gets to decide whether a friendship is something they want to continue putting their energy in. You know, if you . . . for all the kind of sadness that's present there for both of you, I mean I would also tell this letter writer that if you're like "I keep feeling bad about myself because I'm continuing to want to invest in this friendship and my friend for reasons of desire or ability just is not" and that's not changing anytime soon, I think it's also okay to walk away from that. You know, I think that there has to be this sense of not just both parties feel sad about it but also it has to feel like both parties are working on something in order for it to feel worthwhile sometimes.
(48:10)
And, you know, that sense of like oh, it's just an inevitable downshift is not the way it has to be. And so if you're feeling like that's not the direction you want things to go in but that is the direction your friend wants things to go in that means maybe that's an impassible crossroads you're at. I just want to say that too that you don't have to continue to pour yourself into something that isn't giving anything back to you.
Aminatou: Right. And it doesn't mean that you didn't try your best and also, you know, relationships change. So I feel a lot of compassion for this person and, you know, it's like in my happiest place I want them to both push through the thing and come to a place of where they understand each other so I'm going to keep my fingers and my toes crossed.
Ann: It's true. And I really . . . I also think that this is a skill that is going to be required of you in every friendship. I mean we're talking about it in terms of the kids question right now because that's sort of on-theme for this episode but we've talked a lot about and written a lot in this forthcoming book about how this kind of divide or shift in a relationship is challenging and becoming a parent is not the only thing that can trigger a real change in what used to be a very stable, steady friendship. So the skills to push through this and continue to talk about it are honestly life skills, not like oh, just this one period of life when all my friends are becoming parents. This is a lifelong friendship skill.
(49:40)
Aminatou: Yeah. And I also want to give a plug for a book that I've been reading right now called Child-Free By Choice: The Movement Redefining Family and Creating a New Age of Independence by Dr. Amy Blackstone that has been really eye-opening for me because it tackles a lot of just like mechanics and logistics and policy. And whether you want children or not this is a good book to read.
Ann: Ugh, I love that. And I actually think back to our plug for books for everything I would encourage everyone who has decided that they are choosing to become a parent to check out Glynnis MacNicol's memoir No One Tells You This which is about . . .
Aminatou: Yes.
Ann: The experience of being a woman who is child-free and loving it, loving her life. And then also I would encourage people who are not on the path of becoming parents or at least maybe not yet to read things about that experience as well because I think a lot of what I know both in terms of being able to feel compassion for my friends' experience but also meaningfully ask them questions about their lives have come from things I've read about the experience of parenting and becoming a parent. And so, you know, everyone could do a little more work to be like oh, is the grass greener? What is everyone else's experience when it comes to this major question?
Aminatou: What a great place to end.
Ann: I'll see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: I'll see you on the Internet. I'll see you at the playground. I'll see you at the not playground for the people who don't have children. I'll see you in all the places.
Ann: I'll see you not at my friends' one-year-old birthday party because they don't invite their adult friends because it's just for babies.
Aminatou: What?
Ann: Yep.
Aminatou: Ann, the best birthday parties I've been to are for one-year-olds.
Ann: Stop.
Aminatou: It's like the parents finally let loose. I always feel bad for the kid. I'm like this is not about you; this is about us. We have survived one year of you. I love it.
Ann: Wow. I mean I do believe in celebrating parents who have survived their first year of parenthood but I'm like I do that with a nice bottle of wine that I send to them, not with my presence at their child's party, I will be honest. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my goodness. We'll talk about this offline.
Ann: Okay.
Aminatou: I'll see you soon boo-boo.
Ann: Bye!
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf where Sophie Carter-Kahn does all of our social. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.