Phone-a-Friend: Tavi Gevinson

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12/18/15 - For this week’s phone-a-friend edition of Call Your Girlfriend, Amina calls up amazing human, Editor-in-Chief of Rookie Magazine and your favorite lady’s lady crush, Tavi Gevinson to discuss Rookie Yearbook 4, TV, besties, winter coping tips and so much grown ass woman shit. 

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

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TRANSCRIPT: PHONE-A-FRIEND: Tavi Gevinson

Ann: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Aminatou: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Ann: I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: And I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And every other week we'll be bringing you a special phone-a-friend episode between either Aminatou or me and one of our rad pals.

Aminatou: Hey Ann, so this week I called up Tavi Gevinson.

Ann: Oh my god, I'm like having a fan girl fainting moment over here.

Aminatou: I mean it was great. She's truly delightful. We talked about a lot of stuff including the Rookie Yearbook Four. If you don't own it you should go out and buy it immediately.

Ann: All of the Yearbooks. It's like how you signal to other women and girls that you know what's up. It's a hallmark.

Aminatou: Yeah, exactly. And the Yearbook is growing up too which is great, so Tavi and I talked a lot about that, about like growing up and peaking in on teen life when you're no longer a teen. And, you know, I really wish Rookie had been around when I was a teenager, especially . . . I feel that way every time I'm reading Rookie but I think that this yearbook really brought that home for me. And, you know, to say that we're not the target demographic is to be really charitable about it but the truth is that we're not alone. There's a huge reason that so many grown-ass women that we love love that website and Tavi's really the heart and soul of that and she's so generous with how she really chooses to showcase other people's work with her time and with her thoughts and I was really glad I got to chat with her about it.

[Theme Song]

(1:52)

[Interview Starts]

Aminatou: Hi Tavi!

Tavi: Hey, what's up?

Aminatou: Not much. Thanks so much for joining me. This is so fun.

Tavi: Oh my gosh, it's already so fun.

Aminatou: So I did a Gmail search for your email in my inbox and our first email ever was you telling me that I had won a Rodarte for Target mustard cardigan on your blog.

Tavi: No fucking way!

Aminatou: [Laughs] You want to know the funny part? That's literally the only contest I've ever entered and I was so stressed out about it I had to talk to my therapist about it for a while. I was like I don't do contests but I would really like this cardigan.

Tavi: Oh my god! I'm freaking out. That is a real throwback.

Aminatou: That is -- it's such a serious throwback because also there was an insane snowstorm in D.C. so the cardigan got lost and I had to sheepishly email you back and go "Hi, there's snow. The cardigan never showed up." And you fixed it.

Tavi: Oh my god, I'm so flattered that you read my blog and participated. What was the contest? Was it like . . . it was obviously for the Rodarte for Target.

Aminatou: It was probably some sort of caption. I'm not even going to embarrass you by telling you how much Style Rookie was so important for me. I think I will come out the most embarrassed on that side of the conversation but it was a big deal to me.

Tavi: I guess . . . well, we can just get into it. Why not go deep?

Aminatou: Go deep.

Tavi: Because it's already a slumber party. But it's super easy to sometimes be like this is all just like a fluke because I was doing something at a very young age, whether or not it was actually good.

Aminatou: Yeah.

Tavi: So that's super-nice to hear. Thank you.

Aminatou: No, it was wonderful. So I just saw you on Scream Queens.

Tavi: Oh yeah? [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah, your outfit is serving Rosemary's Baby realness. That's like very exciting to watch.

Tavi: I mean I have often fantasized about hiring someone simply to crystallize this moment in my life with this haircut and some kind of Rosemary's Baby fashion through documentation. So it was great that that worked out.

(4:05)

Aminatou: Yeah, no, your haircut is so legit right now. I was watching The Apartment right before we started talking and Shirley MacLaine's haircut is obviously real but there's also this great line in it when somebody asks her "What happened to your hair?" and she's like "It made me nervous so I chopped it off." And I was like yes.

Tavi: [Gasps] Wow! I'll probably have to keep it this way forever.

Aminatou: Yeah, no. Having short hair is the best. So I'm reading the Rookie Yearbook, obvi. It's so overwhelming. There's so much advice in it. It's so, so, so good. One of the things that Ann wanted me to ask you is as you kind of move out of that -- you know, explicitly move out of the Rookie demographic, how's your view of teenage women and what they want and need from media? How's that changing?

Tavi: Yeah. I already feel like a creep for following teenagers on Twitter, not because I'm so much older and sophisticated, but because I just feel like I very much want this to feel like it belongs to them. Like I never, ever use meme language because I feel so herbish.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Tavi: I feel like such a fraud. So yeah, I think when I started it I felt really strongly about having this space where I could work out stuff I was going through and other people could do the same. And now I feel more really passionately about giving that space to the girls I meet on the road, at our book event, or who write in to us or who I follow online, feeling like a creep. And I kind of feel like with my stuff . . . I mean some of it's really universal. There's a reason why adults read Rookie and there are certain things that I still feel like I can work out in my editors letters and I love having that exercise every month. And I don't know, I've been working on something all year that I don't know what it will become and I don't ever really want it to end but it's a really long piece of writing and it feels not meant for Rookie but I feel good about finding people who are closer to that experience.

Aminatou: Yeah.

(6:12)

Tavi: I feel like I forgot high school as soon as I left and I don't really want to relive it. And as much as insecurity and anxiety and depression are still parts of my life and I feel comfortable talking about those things I don't remember what it's like really to go to school every day and have all of the complicated feelings about it.

Aminatou: Yeah, it's amazing that you talk about that weird creepiness of looking in because I think that's how I felt reading your blog a long time ago. And I think that's what I appreciate about the Yearbook so much, right? Is even though it's a space for teens there's so much for me in it. I mean I'm not that much older than you but it's still . . . I feel like it's a great way to peek in. It's like all of the teens I kind of stalk on the Internet and try not to invade their spaces, I'm like yes, they've produced a thing I can read now.

Tavi: Yeah, I know! I feel like . . . well, we always joke in the office that we're the only people where it's okay for us to literally . . . like there's this illustrator we're obsessed with, you should follow her on Instagram, lucia.land.

Aminatou: Oh, I follow her. Hello.

Tavi: Oh my gosh.

Aminatou: So good.

Tavi: It's all connected. She's amazing and she came to our Seattle event. I was like who is this extremely poised, confident girl in the front row asking all these questions? And then she was like -- I met her at the signing after and she's like "I don't know if you remember but I came to a Rookie event when I was ten and I cried because I was so nervous."

Aminatou: Oh my god.

Tavi: But she's so talented! But she's 12 and legally we can't work with anyone under 13 and we have it on our calendar for when she turns 13.

Aminatou: [Laughs] 

Tavi: But basically we're just like we're the only people where this isn't creepy.

Aminatou: Yeah, you're like the Law and Order SVU episode waiting to happen.

Tavi: Seriously.

(7:55)

Aminatou: It's going to be great. Oh man. Speaking of Law and Order what are you watching on TV right now that you love?

Tavi: Let's see, weekly? I really only watch Scream Queens and Bob's Burgers.

Aminatou: Yes!

Tavi: I try not to watch a lot of TV because I live alone and I'm like if I start binge watching anything then I'll just never stop.

Aminatou: And you'll never leave the house. Yes. That's the danger of living alone. The pleasure of living alone is that you can walk around with no pants in your house. The danger of living alone is that you'll want to do that for the rest of your life.

Tavi: The danger of living alone is I woke up in the middle of the night last night and I had weird chest pains and I was like oh my god, they're going to find my body days later.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Tavi: And then I started a Charlie Chaplin movie and I was like this isn't helping. That's the danger of living alone.

Aminatou: Yeah.

Tavi: If I had a roommate I could be like "Wake up. Be with me."

Aminatou: I know. I, in the middle of the night, the alarm . . . I moved into this new house and the alarm just went off for no reason, or maybe I slept walk and touched it. But long story short the fire department showed up.

Tavi: Oh my god.

Aminatou: At like 3:00 in the morning and I'm wearing like literally only flip-flops and a Beyonce t-shirt. And I have to tell these men that the house is in fact not on fire and I don't know what's going on. And I think they just looked at me and they were like likely story.

Tavi: Oh. Do you sleep walk?

Aminatou: I don't think so but I don't know -- I don't know what set off the alarm. My brother sleep walks and so that's why now I'm paranoid about it. I'm just like oh my god, maybe it's genetic and everybody in my family is doing it and we're all weirdos.

Tavi: Maybe he sleep walked all the way to your home.

Aminatou: It's so ridiculous. Who is your favorite Bob's Burger character?

Tavi: I think Gene.

Aminatou: I mean obviously. He's so delightful. He's like the perfect model for every man I know. I'm like please learn from Gene.

(9:55)

Tavi: Yeah, totally comfortable with his masculinity, sexuality, femininity. It's like a very sex-posi show.

Aminatou: It is very sex-posi. You know one TV show that I think we both liked was Parenthood on NBC.

Tavi: Yes.

Aminatou: I had so many strong feelings about that show I made a rule not to go on Twitter to talk about it because it just got a little too emotional sometimes.

Tavi: Wow. Yeah, I know, sometimes you're like I don't need to let people into this part of me.

Aminatou: Yes. You're like I sit at home and watch this and cry every week and it makes me want to live in Berkeley and have a ginormous family.

Tavi: I know. Well that's why, I mean I played Haddie's girlfriend in one episode and then just made her my best friend in real life.

Aminatou: She is . . . she seems wonderful in real life, and miss you Haddie forever.

Tavi: I know. I'm obsessed with Sarah. It's so cool to be obsessed with someone you're friends with and not someone you yearn after on like Twitter like a celeb.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Tavi: Or like me following Rihanna Files because she wore an amazing outfit last night out in L.A.

Aminatou: Oh my god, so, so, so good. Yeah, no, Sarah is definitely . . . I love how I'm calling her by her first name like I'm familiar with her.

Tavi: Yeah, friends.

Aminatou: I'm just low-key obsessed. I think she is somebody very special and I want to see her on everything in television all the time.

Tavi: Oh man, I know. She writes too.

Aminatou: I know.

Tavi: She's writing -- well, she wrote something. I want . . . yeah, I just want her to make everything. I want to write something for her. She just makes me laugh a lot and I also can text her. We text each other through our spirals which is cool and healthy I think so yeah.

Aminatou: That's the best. Okay, posi vibes in the universe so everything comes for her.

[Ads]

(15:10)

Aminatou: I know that you also like to get your aura read.

Tavi: Mm-hmm.

Aminatou: And I got mine read for the first time last week and it was kind of absurd/delightful because I went in a little bit of a hater and came out a true believer in the end.

Tavi: Wow.


Aminatou: Well it's only because my aura turned out to be silver which is the color of abundance, you know?

Tavi: I've never heard of a silver aura. Oh my god.

Aminatou: Yeah, it's silver, and the woman was like "This is the color of abundance. You're shiny and bright." And I was like sold, sold, sold, sold. I want physical wealth. I want spiritual wealth. I'm in. I'm in.

Tavi: Wait, did you get a photo of it or was it just a reading?

Aminatou: It was just a reading.

Tavi: Okay.

(15:52)

Aminatou: I could not commit to a photo but now I want to go back because I'm like this is the only thing I want to Instagram now is my shiny aura. [Laughs]

Tavi: Yeah. I mean I've gotten it done so many times now and it is interesting to see the progression and I have totally been like oh, yeah, totally my aura turned green after that breakup because he was toxic. I can totally assign whatever meaning to it.

Aminatou: 100%. That's amazing. How is living in New York? I moved to San Francisco and I miss New York with every part of my body.

Tavi: I miss New York even when I'm here. I think it's just this constant state of want that is inherent to living here. I love it so much. Yeah, I live in the West Village.

Aminatou: Yes, the best! What's your favorite place to eat?

Tavi: I really like the Russ & Daughters restaurant.

Aminatou: Yes, that's . . .

Tavi: Russ & Daughters Cafe or whatever.

Aminatou: It's so good. Jen Snow is just like a genius so it's perfect.

Tavi: Is that the chef?

Aminatou: No, Jen Snow is like the Russ & Daughters yenta. If you don't know her in New York you should know her. She makes all of the vibes possible there and she's a delightful human being.

Tavi: Oh my god, okay, cool. Yes. I'm going to make her my mom. I also kind of have a rule . . . I mean I don't totally live by it but I try to only hang out with older people who have kids. [Laughs]

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Tavi: It's like everyone else here is sort of insane. I just try to find people to adopt me.

Aminatou: Yeah, no, it's very grounding and loving. Are you listening to anything that you love right now? I must admit I'm listening to Justin Bieber's Purpose and I've been a Belieber since day one but I know a lot of people are born-again Beliebers.

Tavi: Wow. I don't know enough about his most recent incarnation. I did see Never Say Never opening weekend in 3D in Times Square.

Aminatou: Oh my god, so insane.

(17:54)

Tavi: And then again in an orthodontist's chair.

Aminatou: It's the best documentary ever made I think. I was really shocked it was not nominated for an Oscar.

Tavi: Yeah, you see his parents, his upbringing. But I feel like I've just been listening . . . I mean the new Missy Elliott song and video.

Aminatou: It was worth waiting ten years for her to do whatever it was she was doing.

Tavi: Did you see her tweet that was like "I'm crying. I didn't realize how much you missed me?"

Aminatou: Yes, so I printed -- I have a printout of that and it's always on my desk.

Tavi: Oh my god.

Aminatou: Because it made my heart hurt that Missy Elliott didn't know how much we loved her. That's kind of what I want a lot more of my Internet presence to be, just delightful affirmations all the time and telling people how much I love them.

Tavi: Yeah.

Aminatou: Because it's so clich, right? You're like yes, life is very short. Tell the people that you love that you love them. You just have to do it sometimes.

Tavi: Yeah, and you have to . . . oh, you know what I have been listening to a lot? Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark.

Aminatou: Oh my god.

Tavi: And every day I'm tempted to tweet multiple lyrics, which I have done. It's such a masterpiece. I'm like there should be a parade in honor of it for no reason. Then I get freaked out because I'm like there are so many things like this that I'm not learning about all the time and you could never see it all.

Aminatou: So real. You know, since we're ladies and I wanted to talk about this I think that you . . . I read an interview with you where recently you said some really smart things about my number one pet peeve which is when reporters ask celebrities about whether they're a feminist.

Tavi: Oh my god.

Aminatou: And it's such an annoying question for many reasons. One, it just says more about the reporter than it actually says about the person on the other end. Two, it's a question that they always exclusively ask women.

Tavi: Yeah.

(19:50)

Aminatou: And three, when somebody says something crazy like "No, I'm not a feminist. I don't believe in harming animals," they never correct the person on what feminism actually is. So it's just like a combo of garbage.

Tavi: Right.

Aminatou: Like a really unfair interview question I think.

Tavi: I mean even thinking about your fav Justin Bieber I remember one of his first . . . I think it was the first Rolling Stone cover story after he became kind of sexy, like I think maybe he was shirtless -- he was trying to get there -- and they asked him if he believed in abortion.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Tavi: And it's just like why? You're just setting him up to sound like an idiot and that's not something any of us need to know anyway. Why would you even ask him that? I feel like most of it comes out of my frustration where I'm just like there's no reason why a celebrity should be unproblematic. And look, I'm an ambitious person, but people who . . . not to be like everyone sells their soul.

Aminatou: Yeah.

Tavi: But it's just like if anything there's more reason they should be problematic just because the kind of mixture of chemicals it takes to be a world-famous pop star is not necessarily an empathetic worldview. It's so interesting because I'm reading this book called Gods Like Us that Sarah told me to read and it's about the roots of celebrity and movie stardom. I'm getting super grandpa now but . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Tavi: When movies switched over to talkies from silent films a lot of actors couldn't make the transition because their voice just . . . it wasn't right.

Aminatou: Yeah.

Tavi: And now everything has to check out and that just doesn't make sense to me because I don't see why someone who's an entertainer should also be a feminist or an activist. It's cool if they are but . . .

Aminatou: Yeah, it's like the whole game is rigged, right? And we just . . . a lot of my friends make fun of me because they say I'm such a celebrity defender but I really am. I think that we never give people the opportunity to kind of be their full selves. It's like yes, some of these people are protected by insane piles of money but it doesn't mean they're not human. It doesn't mean we have to snoop into their lives or not treat them like they're real people. So as much as I'm like I don't want to hear what person XYZ thinks about, I don't know, serious topic XYZ, it doesn't diminish who they are. So it really . . . I don't know.

Tavi: Yeah.

(22:24)

Aminatou: I'm a celebrity apologist for days. When I'm king we'll stop posting pictures of their children online. It just drives me up the wall.

Tavi: Oh my gosh. Right. Well I think that . . . I guess that's what grosses me out about the "Are you a feminist?" question. To me it's in the same family as posting pictures of their children is that it is about an obsession with celebrity and wanting to understand how much of this person is authentic and whatever more than it is about feminism. I just think it's dangerous to confuse that with activism. Like I think a lot of celebrities have learned from being called out on the Internet, but I don't know, maybe I just feel so fatigued.

Aminatou: I know, there's definitely fatigue to it. Obviously feminism is for everyone -- thank you bell hooks -- but, you know, there's also a lot of the deeper aspect of the practice, right? Where it's like no, actually feminism is also political and it's also economical and all these things. And surely I'm not going to expect anybody to tell me what their whole life philosophy is in one soundbite. We're smarter readers and watchers than that. So if anything I want somebody to start asking the reporters. I'm like "Are you a feminist? What are you doing to further the feminist agenda?"

(23:42)

Tavi: Right, I know. Because it's not that I'm against calling people out. I think that's important. But I think it's a cheap . . . I think something like "Are you a feminist?" Like asking Shailene Woodley that, it's just like who cares?

Aminatou: Yeah, who cares? As somebody who deeply loves the Internet one of the things that makes me so sad is that -- and I'm so glad I was born when I was born, I guess -- is we don't give people room to grow anymore and to kind of have different ideas and to . . . I think of even who I was last year. I just feel that every year I become less and less of a piece of shit human.

Tavi: [Laughs]

Aminatou: And that's like the privilege of getting older, and just having a little bit more perspective and wisdom. You know? And I feel that the Internet just doesn't let people do that. I'm like no, sometimes people think ridiculous things and they're so wrong, but guess what? It's okay. It's okay. We're all on a journey as Mary J. Blige says so it's fine.

Tavi: Yes, we are.

Aminatou: Okay, before we go I'm going to ask you two things. Tell me -- well, I'm going to ask you one thing. Tell me two delightful things in your life right now, or things that you're enjoying or liking or anything.

Tavi: Right now I'm sitting at my desk. Love my desk because it's clean. And it's fall in New York right now. It's cliched but it's so lovely.

Aminatou: It is really lovely. God, I miss having seasons. What are your feelings about winter and how do you self-care?

Tavi: Ooh, okay. Winter I actually like because it's really cozy. Like I think it's pretty natural for me to kind of spend hours inside and lose track of time anyways. But sometimes I'm like oh, no, I'm actually just depressed.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Same. Same.

Tavi: For self-care then I . . . this is a luxury but I see a therapist and I'm medicated year-round. I guess in the winter, I mean writing is self-care for me and making sure I have time to do that and tune other things out.

(25:52)

Aminatou: I texted my therapist that I was talking to you today because he's my healthiest relationship I have I think.

Tavi: I feel that way about my therapist.

Aminatou: And his daughter is a Rookie so he was very excited.

Tavi: That's so sweet! Oh my gosh.

Aminatou: Yeah, the Rookies, they're everywhere. It's my favorite thing in the whole entire world. They're just everywhere. It's like I know all these African Rookies and they are so amazing also.

Tavi: Oh my gosh, what a lovely thing to hear.

Aminatou: Take it on world tour. Take it on a world tour.

Tavi: That's the goal.

Aminatou: Ugh, I am rooting for you all of the time Tavi. Thank you so much for talking to me today.

Tavi: Thank you. Thank you for calling me and tell Ann I say hi and that I love Call Your Girlfriend.

Aminatou: Yes! Call Your Girlfriend loves you back. Have the most wonderful day.

Tavi: You too! Bye.

[Interview Ends]

[Music]

Ann: All right, you can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download our show on the Acast app or on iTunes where it would be awesome if you left us a review. You can also tweet at us at @callyrgf or email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. And you can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.

Aminatou: Gina!

Ann: Gina!

Aminatou: [Laughs]
2015, interviews, friendshipCall Your GirlfriendTavi Gevinson, Rookie Magazine, Yearbook, Rookie Yearbook 4, winter, grown ass woman