Home Girls

10/25/14 - We advise listeners on how to deal with an ex-bestie who keeps popping up years later. And a sticky situation involving love, debt, marriage as a potential economic tool, and lasagna.

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.

---

---

CREDITS

Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

ZZ Top - Viva Las Vegas

Hannah Rad edit of Robyn - Call Your Girlfriend

---

---

TRANSCRIPT: HOME GIRLS

[Ads]

Charlotte: So on my way home on the bus guess what I listened to?

Sophie: What?

Charlotte: I listened to Call Your Girlfriend.

Sophie: [Gasps] Sarah, did you listen to that yet?

Sarah: Oh my god, I love that show.

Sophie: I love it so much. I am so excited we can actually talk about it now!

Charlotte: Yes! 

Sarah: Yes. Is everyone up-to-date?

Sophie: It was so good. Yes.

Charlotte: Yes!

Sophie: Hi Ann and Amina, it might not sound like it but on that recording there's actually all three of us. I'm Sophie.

Sarah: I'm Sarah.

Charlotte: I'm Charlotte. I just found it. I'm so excited. [Laughs]

Sophie: So we love Call Your Girlfriend and we look forward to every episode. Thank you so much!

Ann: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Aminatou: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere. [Laughs]

Ann: Everywhere. I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: And I'm Aminatou Sow.

Gina: Hey, and I'm CYG producer Gina Delvac. Today on the agenda Ann and Amina answer more of your questions, how to deal when your formerly broken-up bestie tries to rekindle the flame way down the line, and a very sticky situation that involves love, money, marriage as an economic tool, and lasagna.

[Theme Song]

(2:25)

Aminatou: So Ann, we have this other question from a reader, a listener. God, why do I always get those wrong? From a listener -- hi, listener -- that's basically all about how do you deal with an ex-bestie? Dun, dun, dun. So here's the backstory. Before moving to Atlanta for grad school this woman had a friend back home who wasn't really, to quote her -- this is so good -- who "wasn't really bringing anything to the table."

Ann: Oh my god, did you ghost write this?

Aminatou: I know, I feel like I just submitted a question to the podcast. [Laughs] Oh! Anyway, "She's one of those girls who forgets about her friends when she gets a new boyfriend and then remembers them again when they have a fight so I was basically on the fence about whether or not I wanted to keep up the effort of being friends with her when the day before I was moving I texted her asking if she could come at least to meet up at a coffee shop or something before I left. Her response was 'We are too busy. Why don't you come over here?'" Ooh, so anyway the whole interaction goes bad and then they are basically -- the whole interaction is bad. They're not friends. Six weeks, she . . . the listener says "I basically acted like a baby and just stopped responding to any of her texts, which were few and far between let me tell you. After about six months she finally got the hint that I was ignoring her and wrote me this email on Facebook." Ugh, people who write emails on Facebook.

Ann: Ugh. Worst.

Aminatou: No. No, no, no. "I explained to her how I was hurt and blah, blah, blah, the feelings, a lot of feelings. And then she blew up on me." Oh, so feelings, then she tells her about the boyfriend and then there's more feelings. Everything is awful.

Ann: What about the boyfriend? Did they break up? Is that why she's reaching out again?

(4:22)

Aminatou: No, they . . . here's the twist. For them this was all four or five years ago and all of a sudden on Facebook -- ugh, stop using Facebook to share important communications -- "I get an email from her asking how I'm doing and how I've been and if I'm living in Miami again because we could meet up. Do I just completely ignore her? What would be the point of responding when I don't plan on rekindling this friendship? I feel there's also role to discuss social media's role in friendship here." Oh my god, there's so much room.

Ann: Yeah, like don't use Facebook first of all.

Aminatou: Yeah, stop using Facebook to pour your guts out. That's always a red flag. When I go into my Facebook messages and it has more than two lines on it I'm like that's where all the crazy people reach out to you.

Ann: Right, Facebook mail should be like "What is your email address? Thanks."

Aminatou: Yeah. [Laughs] Yeah, it's the same thing. Then when you go into Gmail and you get an email from somebody that's like 17 paragraphs, also a crazy person.

Ann: Yeah.

Aminatou: But at least god bless for using paragraph breaks. Well listen, listener, I think that you already kind of know what you want to do and I think that you should go with your gut. I think that we discussed this last time too. When you choose to not tell people how you feel then there's room for that weird -- you know, that weird in-between time, right? Like if you don't want to hang out with this person it's completely okay to send a short, terse note that says "Hey, I'm still in Miami. I'm very busy. I wish you all the best. Good luck, good bye, XOXO." Something along those lines. You know, but I think that if you still feel -- if you still feel any kind of affection for her, if this person was a close friend to you, or you feel like there are things you want to get off of your chest, it's totally okay to want to meet up with her and discuss those things with her. I think that not everything is zero-sum when it comes to rekindling friendship and how you communicate. But I will say your friend is a terrible communicator.

(6:30)

Ann: Yeah, well some of it is about expectations as well. Like, you know, after you've had a break in contact with someone, you know, you can kind of . . . I don't know, it's not explicit, but renegotiate the terms of your friendship. Like at this point you're probably not going to be besties again but you might be like friendly acquaintances who get together when you're in the same city and do the occasional check-in email. Kind of like how you stopped replying to her occasional texts because you wanted to end the friendship, you can sort of say like "No, but maybe next time I'm in town," then have the one brunch. You know what I mean? The one brunch catch-up for the year then kind of go back to not really being in touch.

Aminatou: Yeah, you know, I think this is all super personality-based, right? Like some people are totally okay with being really good friends with someone and then an incident happens and you take a long break then you can communicate again. And for some people they're just more black-and-white about it. And I think that I tend to fall into that -- like I don't know how to deal with after there has been weirdness. I'm a big, big baby about that. So I think that you kind of have to gauge where you're at on that spectrum.

Ann: Right.

(7:45)

Aminatou: Like if you can handle the weirdness then, you know, it's totally fine to have the one brunch or god forbid send a Facebook email and see how you feel about it. But if you feel like you don't want to deal with that then I think that for both you and her sake it's better to be really clear about the fact that this is not -- you know, this is not going anywhere. So send that short, nice response and have a big whiskey.

Ann: Aww. I feel like the . . . we didn't expect the number of besties not living up to expectations emails. It makes me kind of sad.

Aminatou: I know, it really breaks my heart. I want everybody to be besties. Maybe we should take back all of our advice and be like "Go! Do a big, grand gesture."

Ann: Like romantic comedy moves, chase her through an airport.

Aminatou: Yeah, romantic comedy moves. Eww, no.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: No, you know, this is true. This is something that I had not anticipated and it does totally bum me out but also, you know, I don't know. Sometimes . . . I'm very philosophical about friendships and relationships that way. I think that there is an ebb and flow and some things are not forever and friendships are -- you know, friendship is part of that too.

Ann: Right. It's not just romantic relationships that sometimes have a set duration.

Aminatou: No, totally. And sometimes, you know, when those friendships or those people aren't in your life it just means you have room for other people and other things in your life. So focus on the positive things instead.

Ann: That's also true. There's only so much time in the day, only so many Facebook messages you can send and receive.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Ann, if you ever send me a Facebook email I will just end you.

Ann: I think our Facebook interaction is limited to sort of passive likes and then you checking me in at embarrassing places where we go like Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill in Vegas. Like I will never forgive you for checking me into that.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

(9:48)

Ann: Because I never check in anywhere, so when you're like "Where has Ann been?" it looks like I've never left my house except to go to Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill.

Aminatou: You know, that's love. That's love.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: You just have to deal with it. I remember you being very enthusiastic about that check-in.

Ann: I know. I know. I'm doing that thing.

Aminatou: On the Las Vegas strip. [Laughs]

Ann: I was drunk. Anyway . . .

[Music]

Ann: Last question is so long. Are you going to read it?

Aminatou: Okay, I'll read it. All right, "Setup: my boyfriend and I have been together over five years. We live together in a house that we bought together." So adult, whew. "Share food costs and things like that." I'm already too hot. "He makes more money than me. He has savings that are as big as my student debt, so really big." In addition . . .

Ann: I like how she's like "His savings are huge."

Aminatou: I know. Whew, girl. "In addition to his full-time job he does some freelance and art projects. I thought of my question because I was listening to your podcast while making some lasagna and he's out working on a freelance project and was thinking that it's this funny traditional situation. I do a fair amount of domestic work, cooking, cleaning, that benefits both of us. He does a fair amount of extra work outside of the house but he keeps all the money from it. I'm getting to the question, I promise. On the one hand, marriage, yuck. On the other hand I have this negative doubt where by eschewing marriage . . ." Is that how you say that word?

Ann: People say both eschew and askew. I say eschew.

Aminatou: Okay, cool. I'm being vulnie because you know English is not my first language.

Ann: I mean most English speakers don't know how to pronounce most of those words.

Aminatou: Cool. "By eschewing marriage for feminist reasons I'm actually shooting myself in the foot. My boyfriend chocks up our differences in financial status to life choices. I chose to go to grad school and take on debt. He chose to pursue personal relationships that get him jobs. I agree but think there's that extra layer of gender that narrows/widens our opportunities and guided those choices. I went to grad school because I couldn't find a job. He works in a male-dominated field, carpentry," that's so hot, "that is very marketable due to its site-specific nature and can't be outsourced. If we were to get married he would take on some of my debt. I would take on some of his assets. By not marrying he gets all of the upsides, like there's this cultural narrative stereotype where men don't really want to get married, that staying a bachelor forever is just the best thing that could happen to them. So I feel like I'm feeding into that. We're already living in a married couple way but I don't have the protection or the legal status and the relationship equality of sharing debt/assets and we don't even have kids. Right? So my situation is specific to me and I can't ask you if I should get married because you need more information about those specifics so instead can you talk about it in a general way? Like what does it mean to protest this one patriarchal institution in a culture where the patriarchy is still so dominant and statistically women don't make as much as men but still take on larger domestic workloads, etc., etc.?"

Ann: I mean . . .

(13:12)

Aminatou: That's a lot to unpack.

Ann: I think that this financial angle is really interesting wherein . . . I mean it is true that being married to someone means they share your debt. Obviously there are a lot of ways to marry someone and come out on the losing end financially, like it's not a great way to do it. But there is a part of me that enjoys the motivation for marriage being like I'm going to get mine financially because the world has screwed me in all of these subtle ways and this is one way for me to take some of it back. I don't know. I mean -- yeah, I don't know what to say. 

Aminatou: [Laughs]

(13:55)

Ann: Other than I like where you're headed with this sort of financial retribution angle although it's maybe not the best foundation for a lifetime of relationship bliss.

Aminatou: I mean I don't know. I think that there's a lot here, right? And I think that she is right, like we can't speak to her specific situation. This is not legal advice. [Laughter] I love it when you email your lawyer friends and that's what they come back to you with. They're like "This is not legal advice but . . ."

Ann: But let me tell you exactly what's up.

Aminatou: Yeah, but let me tell you what. And it's like can't wait to get this email subpoenaed. But anyway. [Laughs] You know, I think there's a lot going on here. Personally I think I would be a little uncomfortable if I was living with somebody for so long and we were already sharing a lot to not -- you know, not have that sharing of debts and assets because you contributed in other ways but also you don't have to be married to have that kind of arrangement. Like obviously, you know, the law and the Supreme Court might shit all over your status in a court of law but I think that there's ways to have that conversation and have that arrangement, right? Like that line about him keeping all of his cash from jobs, that was like whew.

Ann: I know, I keep thinking about that.

Aminatou: You know, it's like out of context it's something that I would have to dig deeper into that. Because it's like no, man, you're out there making lasagna, contributing to this house. Uh-uh. Also there's other arrangements other than marriage that give you certain such protections.

Ann: Right. Well, and I also think that . . .

Aminatou: What's that, domestic partnership?

Ann: Sure. The interesting issue that this raises too is that equality and justice are two different things. Like equality, we each pay 50% of the rent. But maybe justice is the fact that you do most of the housework and he does all this work on the outside so he pays slightly more of the rent. Like that doesn't look equal but actually it's probably just given the way you do -- your work breaks down or whatever.

(15:55)

I mean also, I don't know, I think that there are ways for you to have this conversation that doesn't force it as a "Do we get married thing?" Even aside from the "Or do we get domestic partnered?" or whatever. Where if it's like you are feeling some frustration or inequality about the financial situation, like debt versus assets, and you think that you want someone who's a good partner to you to care about that and to help sort of right that imbalance, I think you have to find a way to discuss that in the context of the relationship wherein maybe marriage is the answer but the idea of like "Oh yeah, I'm going to get married just to sort of like balance this out financially," is probably like an end-run around what should just be a super difficult adult conversation about money and your relationship.

Aminatou: Ugh, money's so hard. I really want our friends at The Billfold actually to answer this because I feel that they . . . they talk a lot about this kind of stuff and I would love to hear different kinds of people's perspective on it. But yeah, money. Like talking about money is hard and then mixing money and any kind of relationship is just like nightmare dynamite.

Ann: Right. And especially because I actually think that the dynamic that this listener describes wherein it's like -- yeah, it's about household finances but then there's also this political layer where she's like "True, we made practically different choices but you kind of had a privilege advantage that maybe is not being seen or acknowledged." And that's the kind of thing that, you know, is not going to ever be a daily or weekly problem but is probably going to wear on you in the long-term. I mean it sounds like it is. You wrote us this email right?

(17:45)

Aminatou: No, totally. I think that, you know, obviously the most political thing I think in any relationship is chores. [Laughs]

Ann: Ugh, so political.

Aminatou: And, you know, all of the domestic shit in your life.

Ann: Who shovels the shit?

Aminatou: Yeah, you know? And I think there is really a way for that -- for women especially -- to be really resentful and that stuff eat at you, you know? Because it seems so small. It seems really small and not like a big deal and it's like the way that your great grandma did it or whatever and you should be able to just Martha Stewart your way out of it. But I think if you feel like it's not fair or that it is -- you know, that you're becoming resentful of it -- you do need to find ways to address it.

Ann: Yeah. I mean maybe the way to address it is for him to pay for some housecleaning help.

Aminatou: No, totally.

Ann: Or something like that.

Aminatou: This lady is so awesome. This is the best.

Ann: I mean yes. Also I would love to try your lasagna. Just saying.

Aminatou: I know. Please send us your lasagna recipe. You are -- you're the best.

Ann: Ugh, I . . . yeah. I like that we're ending on lasagna this episode instead of on This Week in Menstruation. It feels somehow like . . . [Laughter] It's like thematically the same.

Aminatou: Yeah, like nobody's on their period today so let's just take a week off for periods.

Ann: Take a week off from periods for carbs and tomato sauce.

Aminatou: Exactly. [Laughs]

Ann: Amen.

Aminatou: It's the best. Keep writing us. You can write us at callyrgf@gmail.com or you can tweet at us at @callyrgf or find us on the website callyourgirlfriend.com.

Ann: Thanks so much for listening and writing. See you on the Internet.

Aminatou: See you on the Internet, boo-boo.

Gina: Subscribe to Call Your Girlfriend on iTunes or find us on Stitcher and other popular podcasting apps. Your hosts are Ann Friedman and Aminatou Sow. Kenesha Sneed designed our kick-ass logo and yes this is the weird voice of god, producer, editor, and music-picker Gina Delvac. This is most definitely not NPR.