I'm the Bad Guy Sometimes
12/17/21 - We're not dead yet! Aminatou talks with legendary podcast, poet and essayist Nichole Perkins about navigating relationships as a Black woman, desire, boundaries, longing, and much more as we chat about her new book, Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: I’M THE BAD GUY SOMETIMES
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou:Hi Ann Friedman. How you doing over there?
Ann: Hello. This episode is here to surprise anyone who, uh, maybe just listened too quickly to our big announcement and thought we were like ending the things then and there like surprise. We still have a few episodes left. Not dead yet.
Aminatou: Not dead yet. The Ann and Amina story. I love it.
Ann: How are you doing? You know, I'm, I'm, I'm here. As you like to say, I'm here. We're here. We're here. We're here. Well, I'm very excited about this week's episode. Um, because I talked to one of my favorite writers, Nichole Perkins.
Ann: So excited. Love Nichole Love her work.
Aminatou: Well, Nichole's work is really amazing. Like she is a, you know, like grade A podcaster, grade A poet. And now she’s written this book called Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be, a Prince lyric you might recognize. Hmm. Um, and, and the book is so fun. I mean, like, you know, classic Nichole, it's really using like her own obsession with pop culture to talk about like how she navigates like relationships as a Black woman. So it's, you know, like if you're a fan of like feminism, fanfiction, um, you know, anything that's like Southern lore, this is the book for you. She like even made me like rethink the TV show Frazier and I'm like, seriously rewatching it right now because of her. So, um, I won't give away too much, but, um, Nichole's book is amazing and it's available wherever you buy books,
[theme song]
[interview begins]
Aminatou: Hi, Nichole. Thanks for being here.
Nichole: Thank you so much for having me. I love the show. I love you. I love everything. I'm just really excited to be here.
Aminatou: Mutual appreciation society, I love when it works out well, Nichole you're, you know, like you are an amazing pop culture commentator. You were like an iconic podcast host, uh, Thirst Aid Kit, still, still number one in our hearts. You know what I mean?
Nichole: Thank you.
Aminatou: And you know, and you're like, and you're an amazing poet and like a wonderful writer. Um, and you know, today I wanna talk to you about, Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be, which is your like new, well, it's your, um, your unflinching memoir that came out in August and all of the writing I had read from you, um, was like predominantly poetry at that point. So I think that when the book showed up, I had expected it to be poems, but just because I'm like, because I didn't read to the marketing material, cause I'm an idiot, not because it was like signaled anywhere and it was so exciting to Oprah and be like, oh my God, she's writing essays. She's gonna tell me, she's gonna tell me all the things. And I'd been in reading the Sam Irby, um, book of essays. And it was such a seamless transition into reading, um, into reading your, into reading your essays. I wonder, um, I wonder what that experience was like for you to like write, to like write a memoir in essays.
Nichole: Uh, it was very different. Uh, I'm used to writing post no essays online and then writing personal essays in a book form is almost completely different. Um, in a way that, you know, when you're online, you have to kind of get in, get to the point and get out because you know that you have to hold your reader's attention in a particular way, because they're gonna be tired of looking on at their phone or they're gonna like, you know, click to one of their 200 tabs that they have open or something like that. So you have to be really quick. Um, and usually online, uh, personal essays have to, in my experience for the most part, they seem to want to be very neatly tied, uh, at the end, you know, and give you the, the lesson and tell you, you know, give you a pat on the back and tell you this, this is how it could be for you in many cases and writing essays for a book, I did not want to have that neat ending. I did not want to have, um, I did not, and to give like instructions or give, uh, bullet points for how someone else could conquer these, their similar challenges. Um, and I also just really enjoy being able to sit with, uh, the essay a bit longer and let people like absorb what I was saying a bit more and, um, have the freedom of them, of readers being able to kind of like flip back pages or scroll back through pages or to rewind a little bit, to hear something again, if they're listening through the audio book. Um, so that was, that was, I really enjoyed that part of it, like being able to sit, um, with it and I had to get out of the habit of writing online. Um, my editor would just be like, okay, why don't you sit with this a little more and expand on this a little more, because I was so used to being like, oh, they don't need this background, or I don't have time to get this background. Let me just, you know, get to it.
Aminatou: Totally different speeds.
Nichole: Yeah. Right, right. Right. Um, and Samantha Irby's work was a very strong influence, um, on, on how I approach, uh, my memoir and at this collection, because I just really, I loved how accessible her language was. I love how funny she was. Of course I could be anywhere near as funny as she is, but it's just like, I just really loved how open and vulnerable she was in, in her unique way. And so I tried to figure out how to be, um, similarly open and vulnerable, but as Nichole and not like Nichole imitating Samantha Irby. Um, but it was, I just—
Aminatou: I want to tell you that you hit it out of the park, Nichole, because it was, I was really left thinking just like I was like reading you. I was thinking about my own writing. And I was like, oh, like here, it like something, I think that you, you did really well, what you you've already articulated is that, um, you know, so much of the book is about, uh, you know, it's, it's like about you and like being like a, so else realized like Black woman. And the thing that it left me feeling is that like, none of that is about like a neat, like a neat ending or you never tie it. You like, you just sit in complication in a way that I appreciated. And I think that you also, you are writing voices just like really delightful. And there were, there were so many times that I just like sat there taking notes for myself and, um, you know, and sometimes like when you're reading to interview someone, that's not like my experience is like, okay, I'm taking notes to like ask a questions for interview, not for my own craft purposes. And I think that, I think, I don't know. I really like appreciated that about, um, about reading this.
Nichole: Thank you. Thank you. I definitely wanted to be honest in all of my messiness and make sure people realize that again, I don't have the answers, but I am constantly involving and working on myself. And that was a reason that I put in some chapters where I don't come across very well. You know, I made some mistakes and did some, um, you know, kind of bad things, some dirty things. And I just had to own, um, the accountability for that and recognize that I made a mistake and this is how I'm correcting myself. Um, and, uh, also I wanted to show that there were times that even when I had gotten to this point of feeling much more confident in myself and being, um, more self assured, there are moments where I still regress and have to pull myself back out of, of that muck.
Aminatou: Can you tell me about the title of the book and what inspired that?
Nichole: Sure. The title, uh, Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be is a line from a Prince song, um, called If I was Your Girlfriend from his 1987 album Sign of the Times. And after many, many years, I finally realized that it is my favorite Prince song of all time. And I, I wanted the, to title the book, this, because that is, is often what I do. And I'm like sitting and fantasizing about my life and thinking about what if I had everything that could make me happy. And wouldn't that be kind of trippy to have that, and then trying to figure out, um, you know, what is actually gonna make me happy? Uh, you know, some people say material things aren't gonna make you happy. Well, you know, if I had money, maybe I wouldn't be, uh, so depressed. Like, you know, like that kind of stuff. Um, but also the song itself is about, Prince is singing about, um, changing the nature of his relationship with this particular woman in order to keep her in his life, in order for him to stay in her life. And, um, like, you know, I can't be your man anymore, but what if I'm your girlfriend? And what if I could still be, uh, close to you in a different way? And that's what I've had to do with my life. It’s like, look at things from a different angle and try to figure out, uh, a better way of relating to certain things or a better way of connecting to someone or to my dreams. Um, because they don't, they didn't happen in the way that I thought that they were gonna happen. And I had to open myself up to different perspectives in different ways of achieving my goals. And that's kind of, uh, how I see that song mirroring my life in that way.
Aminatou: Man. I, um, I love that. I love hearing that, uh, you know, you get so vulnerable in this book writing about your own messiness and, um, you know, and you, you do it in a way that I think is just also really generous and kind to the other people in your life. Because I like, I speak like, you know, speaking for myself, I think something that I struggle with a lot in, with this kind of writing is how do I be fair to myself about what happened? Like what my story is, but also how do I protect the other people who are not telling their stories, you know, as, as they're simultaneously happening. And so I wonder for you, like how you negotiate that, like writing about yourself, knowing that it also affects other people.
Nichole: Yeah. I had to figure out how much of other people's stories I could tell out mm-hmm . Um, and I tried my best to only tell their stories where it crossed with mine, um, you know, and things that I knew for sure. And if I didn't know them for sure, then I, you know, I tried to express that in the book and just say, you know, according to family lore, you know, or something like that, or, you know, this is the story that I heard, you know, that kind of thing. Um, and you know, there were things that I definitely felt weird about, um, talking about like, I love my mother and it was really hard for me to write down that there were times that I could tell that she was jealous of me. And so I, I just kind of threw, I think I literally put that sentence in there and then I hurried away from it. But I did want to acknowledge that, you know, that I could feel my mother's jealousy, um, in response to the way that my father treated us. Um, you know, my father was, um, an abusive addict and he would, um, you know, he would beat my mother, but would be very loving to me. And I think my mother resented that, or she didn't understand it, you know, she was a young woman. Um, she was also a teen mother. She had my sister when she, and so she just didn't have time to mature, uh, in a particular way, in the same way that I did, you know? Um, and so I think she didn't know how to express those feelings, uh, that she was, uh, you know, going through, you know, uh, as a victim of domestic abuse and trying to raise a family and all that kind of stuff. And seeing this man who says he loves you, treats you one way and then treats somebody else that he loves another way. It's, um, you know, that's hard. And I just, but I didn't wanna get too much into my mom's story and, and try to analyze her, but I did want to acknowledge that. So, um, yeah, so there were times where I was just like, okay, how much, how much of this story do I need? Um, in order for the reader to understand me in order for me to understand where I'm going with the rest of my story. Um, and obviously I left a lot of things out and, um, not just with my family, but also myself. Um, and I have one person I saw review very early on, um, that was upset that I did not go deeper into my trauma. And like, they resented that I was so sexual in the, a book, uh, but did not talk more about the bad things that happened to me. And that really, that really upset me cuz I feel like, you know, I feel like I talked about enough of my trauma and the bad things that happen. You know, I talk about my abusive father. I talk about a sexual assault. I talk about someone stalking me. I talk about, uh, you, you know, an affair that I participated in, what more, what other kind of trauma do you want me to give you, to make it okay for me to tell my story. Um, and it's also just weird to be like, you know, she gives us too much of her pleasure and I want, I want more of her pain. You know, that's kind of an odd thing. And it's something that I wanted to push back against. Um, because I feel like a lot of the Black women aren't really allowed to write about themselves unless they have a lot of pain in their stories. And we do have a lot of pain of course, but that's not all that we are. And so I just wanted to talk about finding power and becoming, um, you know, becoming a goddess. And just like, you know, reclaiming myself. That's really what I wanted to, to talk most about with the book and how, uh, again, I don't have all the answers and I'm just like going with the punch and as, um, going with the punches. And as soon as I kind of just relaxed into myself, things got better.
Aminatou: Man. I, this thing that you were saying about pain is literally giving me a physical reaction because like, like, wow, what a, I, yeah. What an experience of being like Black woman and a Black woman writer specifically where you're right. It's like people want you, people want you to share your pain and your trauma, but your pain and your trauma also have to share a very spec, like they have to follow a very specific script because , you have to be miserable in a very particular kind of way. And, and I, yeah, I just, I think that it is, it is exhausting to have to like conform to someone else's script, but also it's just so reductive, right? Because everyone goes like everyone's life is their own and you go through your pain, but everyone is allowed to respond to that pain however they want. And healing means that you have to do it. You have to do what works for you. And I think that that was such a theme of the book for me. It's what kind of life do you want and what works for you and what works for me does not work for you, but here's what I'm doing. If that, if that can inform anything for you. And I don't know, like I just appreciated that because I think that when, um, people are invited into conversation, it's a very generous act of self sharing. Like anytime anybody tells you about their life, you don't get to dictate what parts of their life they tell you about. You just get to say, thank you for telling me that because nobody, you know, like we don't owe each other any kind of information. Right. And so when I, when I was reading you, I don't know. I was just like very deeply moved by that, by the sense, you know, cuz there is, there are, there are many versions, you know, like people can write a book like this. That is literally, as you said, like bullet points or advice, you know, every, every ending is like, and here's how I overcame this particular traumatic experience. Do these seven things and you know, and I'm not sure that, you know, I'm not sure that that actually helps anybody, but who am I to say that? And um, but you know, but again, it's like writing the book that you want to write is the best thing that you can do for yourself. But I think that as readers, that's also the best thing that we can receive from it. Right. And so I don't know. I just, I just wanted to articulate that too, because while our stories are like very different, there were just like the ways that you explained situations that you were in, or you explained how, you know, like how you moved on from them or sometimes how you did not move on from them. Like that thinking process is more informative than, okay, what's the specific kind of pain that Nichole Perkins you're like, tell me what's the worst thing that's ever happened to you. But I think it also just makes me sad knowing that you as Black women, like we hold a lot of trauma, but even within that trauma to be expected to perform about it, it's just very painful to realize.
Nichole: Yes, exactly. And you know, when I was talking to my agent when we were first like, um, you know, drafting the book proposal and I was telling her what I was thinking about, I was just like, I do not want this to be a book that confirms being a Black woman is hard. Um, because that's not how I feel like I love being a Black woman. I love being a Black, I love being a woman and there's no way to separate any of that. Um, from my life, from the, from the threads of my life. And I don't want, I don't want anyone to read this book and come away like, wow, she had it so hard and her life is awful and all that. Like, I did not want that, um, at all. So, um, again, I just wanted to be honest about the things that I had gone through and I really wanted to show the diversity of Black womanhood and that we do not always follow this script. Like you were talking about that there is not this, this one life that we are all living, um, just in different regions of the world or something. Um, and so I really that's, I don't know my, my goal in writing this book is, is multilayered. Um, um, but I hope that when people read it that, um, that not only do, they obviously see more of me and, and you know, they understand me a little better, but also they understand themselves or they realize something about themselves and um, they give themselves permission to, to, um, fully be who they are.
Aminatou: Yeah. Wow. Um, to fully be who we all are, what a dream. [laughter]
[ads]
Aminatou: Oh, Nichole, you're really like a very, very intentionally like self reflective person. But I imagine that like, even writing something like this is teaching you new things about yourself. Like, what did you learn about yourself through writing this memoir?
Nichole: I learned that, uh, I am a being of longing. I didn't realize how much that came across. And actually someone had to say, I can't remember who, who it was, but, um, they said that this is a book of longing and I guess that's what it is. Um, um, I feel like I'm constantly craving for something that's just like within, um, arms reach, but I can't seem to hold onto it. And so I've been, uh, trying to figure out what it is that I want. Um, you know, I thought that I knew what I want. I think I'm pretty confident I do know what I want, but I guess there's something else out there for me. So I'm trying to figure out what that is. I also learned that, like, I think I'm finished telling particular stories. So there's one story. Uh, the chapter Scandalous where I talk about the affair that I had, um, a married man and I think I'm done telling that story. It's been a part of my life since I was 25, 26 years old. I'm 44 now. And I think I'm done and it's not that I keep retelling the story because I am still pining over that guy or pining over the relationship or anything like that. But I think I wasn't sure what I was supposed to take from that experience. You know, I wasn't sure what the lesson was. And I think I finally realized that the lesson was just, um, you know, sometimes I am not the victim of circumstances. Sometimes I actually am controlling my circumstances and that I am, I am the bad guy sometimes. And, um, I don't have to stay the bad guy and I can, I can learn from that. And, um, not to say that this was a redemption story. Uh, but I think I just needed to remember that, um, you know, sometimes I do things that are not, uh, not in the best, they're not the best decision. Um, but I can still pull something from the situation.
Aminatou: I mean, I'm not the bad guy. I am the bad guy sometimes is obviously the name of your next book. Like she's like the Nichole Perkins story. I am the bad guy sometimes. [laughter] You know what though? I like Nichole, I'm just so struck, like talking to you about this feeling that, you know, even hearing you say, oh, I don't, sometimes I don't make a good decisions or I, I do things that are not, you know, not great again, to me, it's, it's an matter of like, what is the societal standard, right. And is also sometimes the standard is a full scam, but , you know, it, it takes a lot of resistance to become a person in the world. And I think that like the more resistance you face, the better, you know, the more sharpened you are as a person and everyone faces their own set of circumstances. But so much of just like the privilege of growing up into adulthood is that you get to look back on it and say, okay, that wasn't the best and it's fine. It didn't destroy me or I'm, or I did the thing that I wanted to do. And I think that particularly as Black women, it's important to have agency on those decisions, even if they are, you know, like quote unquote bad, or they're not the best.
Nichole: Yeah. And, um, I've always been very self aware. And I think that may have saved me from a lot of excessive bullying um, because it's hard to, it's hard to bully someone who knows who they are. Um, and I mean, you know, I had the childhood stuff where people made fun of me and that kind of thing, because that's what kids do, but it never got to a point of like, you know, me feeling, um, helpless, uh, in those situations. And I think that's also a way that I have saved myself from, uh, parasitic relationships where people are just using each other, because I, if I don't like you, if I don't care for you, it's very obvious, you know, and I can't just like put on a little front and be like, oh girl. Yeah, you're my bestie. And then I am, um, you know, hating you, um, as soon as you turn away from me. So I've never had like real frenemies, I don't think, uh, anyway, um, just because I'm very aware of all of my flaws and, and those things, um, and the things that have like make me a terrible friend or something like that. Um, but part of that is because I am very, I've always been very clear about boundaries and like, who gets my time and who doesn't. And I was called, you know, wishy washy or, um, uh, you know, I was told that, um, I think I'm too good for people and all this kind of stuff, and really is just, I'm an introverted person. And I don't want to give you my time or your bad energy. And I don't feel like I have to be around you. Uh, so I'm gonna go away. And I think that has saved me from a lot of mess and a lot of unnecessary drama in my life. It's been a little lonely sometimes, but it keeps me, it keeps me in touch with that agency. It keeps me in touch with being able to make decisions for myself, or I'm just like, no, I don't wanna go to that. I don't wanna be bothered by these people. I don't want to have this person in my life. I've never been good at networking or anything like that because it is, you can read my emotions on my face. And if you say something to me that is ridiculous. It just, it just shows. Um, so that has helped me just stay in control, uh, of who I am and who I want to be. Don't know if that comes across in the book, but I, uh—
Aminatou: Are you kidding the main theme of your book is living outside? Um, the expectations of other people? I like the message was received. that, that was, I was like, message received. [laughter] Got it.
Nichole: For sure. And my mom and my family, they always called me the rebel. You know, I really wasn't that rebellious. It was just, I would question authority. Right. Um, and I would just be like, why am I supposed to do this? Just because it's expected of me. And nobody could tell me any reason why, other than that's just how it is. Right. Like going to church all the time. Why do I have to go to church and listen to this sermon? That is not for me? What is the purpose? Well, you just go to church, that's what you need. You have to, it's like, okay, well, I just need more than that. Like, why do I have to wear a dress to my knee? Like what you, all that kind of stuff. I just would question. Um, and I got labeled that's difficult for, um, you know, wanting things explained to me, it's not necessarily like, explained to me why the sky is blue, you know, you know, some things I'm fine with just like being like, okay, that's just how it is. But, um, I guess when it comes to people wanting me to do something, uh, wanting an action from me, I need to know why you deserve this action from me.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean, I, um, I really identify with that and I, I don't know. I think, again, it's, I know that we say that the Black woman diaspora is not the same, but the things that we have in common are quite frightening, you know, , yes. We're very different people. And then, and then I hear you speak and I'm like, Hmm, boundaries. Hmm. Um, questioning authority. Hmm. Like where, um, you know, I wonder, I wonder where all of that's from, but you know, some of it, I think is so much because the, the box that we are, like, the box that we are boxed into is so small and it is so restrictive, you know? And I think sometimes I really wonder if, and I'm sure that people who are marginalized in all, in various ways have a varying, you know, different experience with this. But there are times where I wonder if, you know, the particular, like marginalization that we feel as Black women, um, what the upsides of that have ended up being long term, you know? And I think like long term, when no one is checking for you from the beginning, like, it's obviously like very painful and it's terrible and life should not be that way. But the gift of that really, and I don't use that word, like flippantly. The gift of that is that you really learn to trust yourself and your own instincts.
Nichole: Yes.
Aminatou: Cause you, because you can't rely on anyone else's instincts, you know, or there, there is just something about like constantly being told that you are not enough. You're not beautiful enough. You're not soft enough. You're not gentle enough. You're not all of the things that mean that you really have to learn how to be in touch with yourself. And maybe, and it's a painful lesson to learn, but maybe long term, that's the thing that everyone should be learning anyway. So in some ways, you know, I feel like you are light years ahead of so many people. And it's why, it's why it's, it's why it's delightful to turn to you for this kind of introspection.
Nichole: Thank you. It is hard earned because like I said, it has been very lonely at times. Um, because when you don't let people use you, you end up alone. [laughter]
Aminatou: Wow, wow, wow, Nichole! I'm sorry, when you don't let people use you it's lonely. Got it.
Nichole: Because I think about like, you know, my mom and my sister and women that I would be, you know, uh, that I would work with who were married and they would just be like, you have to be softer. You have to let a man feel like a man. And the thing was, I am very, um, I'm sorry for the essentialism, but I am very girly, like when I am in a relationship and I love you. And I am just like a glee, super soft, like, honey, do you want this? Do you want, I am like that, but that is own after you have earned my love and my trust and all of that kind of thing. So I just don't, I don't pretend to be a girlfriend. I don't pretend to be a wife until I am those things. And so people would tell me that I had to, like, I guess, give the preview of what it could be like married to me to be in a relationship with not absolutely, absolutely not. And then I tried, I really did. I tried, and it just did not sit well with me and these men still left. Um, you know, that kind of thing. And even if I, when I applied that to my professional life, where I tried to come into a job and do all the tasks and do the over and take on other people's work and do all this kind of stuff, because I'm trying to show that I'm a team player and I deserve this promotion and I would not get shit. I would just get more work. I don't, I didn't, that just really bothered me. I didn't wanna keep doing that. And I should not be punished for being good by getting used to taken advantage of cuz that's how I was reading it for a really long time. Like when you're a good employee, when you're a good partner, someone's gonna take advantage of you. And I close down for a very long time because of that and I am just now trying to crawl out of that space, out of that shell where I'm trying to protect myself from being used and taken advantage of. And I remember, uh, some coworkers were just like, all men cheat, you just have to get used to it. Or you just have to like do what you can to keep him satisfied at home. And I was just like, you know what? I refuse to accept that. I refuse to believe that I am just supposed to be taken advantage of and just stay at home sniffling and crying while he's out doing his thing. I just can't, I, I can't do that. And so that's when I just kind of was like, if, if the way that I have to be happy is to avoid that life, then that's what I'm going to do. And so, you know, I've, I've avoided it. And again, it does get a little lonesome and I'm just, you know, I'm trying to figure out, like there has to be a better way. And I haven't figured out that better way yet. I don't know why I keep going back to relationships. I think it's on my mind because I've, uh, some of my girlfriends and I have been texting this week about relationships and, um, trying to figure out like why can't our romantic relationships have the same sort of excitement and verve as our friendships, as our, you know, platonic friendships and, and relationships, uh, between women. And it's just been on my mind. So I apologize. I don't mean to make this all about like—
Aminatou: Are you like, I'm sorry, I'm gonna stop this interview if you, like, if there's an apology in here, I you know, like not to get too vulnerable. Well, even though in your book, uh, like through reading your book, um, I learned that vulnerability should be protected and not feared.
Nichole: Yes.
Aminatou: Um, but you know, the, I think, I think that the reason, you know, desirability is obviously like such a running theme throughout the book. And I, you write about sex and romance in these like very assertive ways. Like I was really, um, I, like, I was really struck by that. Like I was like, oh yeah, like here's a woman who knows what she wants , you know, and, and, you know, but also like acknowledging that, that when you know what you want and, um, and, and you, you have a different model for, for what you, so there's the model that society is selling you, that it is lonely and it is hard. And I don't know, like relationships are obviously very front of mind right now. I think the pandemic also has a lot to do with that. It's like the world is so small. So once you start looking at the, the buckets of how you are in relationship with people, the ones that are, you know, the ones that are smaller tend to stand out, but I don't no, you know, I, that question of like, why can romantic relationships not have the same verve as some of the platonic relationships that we have? Like, that is something that keeps me awake at night.
Nichole: Yeah. It's really scary. like, why do we have to crumble and die so much in romantic relationships, uh, and get told, oh, that's just compromised. Or that's just what happens. You, you're not as intimate anymore. You're not as whatever anymore. And I, I just have a hard time believing that. And I guess I'm, I don't know. I'm waiting for someone to help me disprove that.
Aminatou: Yeah. I think I, you know, like, man, this is so funny. I feel like I should just like fold you into another group chat I'm in, because we're having the same conversation. Be like, hi, y'all meet Nichole. Um, but you know, I think it's like some days I struggle with that where it's like, okay, like who is the person that's gonna come along and disprove this for me. And then other days it really is, um, is someone even supposed to disprove that to me at all? You know, like why, you know, it's like, oh, actually, like, and I don't mean to like intellectualize it or to be like, oh, like, you know, like being single is not difficult in its in its own way. It's just, I think that I am like really questioning the fundamental idea of, is it like, do you have to have a romantic partner in that way in your life? You know?
Nichole: Right. Yeah.
Aminatou: Wanting and wanting one is not a crime obviously. And when it's not a crime, but the, the question for me is where does this desire even come from? Because when I, when I, I don't know, when I think about like desirability so much of the frame is always like, how am I desirable to someone else? And recently for me, it has been like, why is a romantic relationship like desirable at all? You know, where, like, it's not about me. It's like, if I start from a place where like, oh, actually no, no, no, I am like a desirable person, like acquired taste for sure. But, you know, there's someone for everyone, but really just like questioning that, like that frame itself and questioning my own desire for that kind of relationship. Um, you know, without like out negating it or diminishing it, I think, you know, I was like, if you desire something, it is powerful and it's powerful to listen to that signal because I think that signal tells me more about myself than like being in the relationship itself actually but it is like, you know, it's just, it's hard. Also I think that, you know, it's like the messaging, the romantic messaging is just like very powerful. It's just very powerful. They're like, you gotta be in a fairy tale, even in our, like more liberal, you know, like evolved worlds. There are still, like, there are still expectations, you know, like within that script. And so it's interesting when you realize that you were outside of a very, a very rigid social norm.
Nichole: Right. And like society is constantly telling us that you have to be at least a couple, uh, in some way, right? Like even if you win a free trip in a contest, it's always for two, right. Um, if you,
Aminatou: Yeah right, I can't go to the Maldives is my friend and share a room because every bed is a, is like a king bed, cause they, this has been, this has been the vein of existence of certain trips that I've taken where it's like all of these, you know, like people we wanna go and you don't necessarily wanna share a bed with someone all the time. And I was like, wow, this culture of hotels that only cater to people who are sleeping in the same bed is wild to me.
Nichole: It is so wild, I've experienced this so many times with, um, me and my good friend, Mickey, we often travel together. We'll go to like, you know, little resorts and stuff like that, just to take it easy and we get separate rooms, but because they see, you know, because the staff sees us, uh, together, like, you know, having dinner together and getting drinks, they're trying figure out, are we a couple or wives? And you know, they ask us all these really strange questions, uh, to basically try to, like I said to, to see if we're together and when we say, oh, no, we're not together. We're just here as friends, they physically relax, you know, which is, you know, I don't wanna call it, say that's homophobia, but maybe it is. I don't know.
Aminatou: It is jumping out, it's jumping out, you know, like, I think, I think that's fair to say.
Nichole: Yeah. And so they relax and they become more friendly. They, uh, even though we're usually at some place, all inclusive, they really turn drinks then, you know, um, and I still end up with like, uh, even though I'm in a room by myself, when they do turn down service, they still put the roses on the bed and spell out, welcome or goodnight, you know, I’m just like thanks.
[laughter]
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, this is—
Nichole: But yeah. So we, yeah. So we get all these messages all over the place that there has to be. At least you have to be a part of some kind of pair, right? Like even when you're these little Instagram contests tag your bestie, well, what if I don't have a bestie now you're making me feel bad. And I had to like tag my—
Aminatou: That’s fine for besties, but if you ever need to tag someone on Instagram to win some free tag me, cause I wanna go where you're going. [laughter]
Nichole: But it's just, we get all this messaging all the time. Um, and, uh, I don't know. So I, I, I just gonna blame the capital S society for that, but, um, yeah, I, desire has been, I, it really has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. Like, you know, in the book I talk about reading the biblical Song of Solomon and just being struck by the poetry of it, but also the, the heat of it. Um, I was very surprised to see that in the Bible and that we're just supposed to ignore it, it, and then ignore our bodies.
Aminatou: RIght. The Bible is like full of lust and then it's like, don't lust. And I'm like, but you just described the lust.
Nichole: Exactly, Exactly.
Aminatou: It's like, yeah, it's like the DARE program when they come in there and they tell you how delicious drugs are. And then you're like, well, here's the problem? Here's the problem. You shouldn't have told me that it was amazing. [laughter]
Nichole: Yeah, I just, I'm, I'm fascinated by what people want and how they express what they want and the ways that we have been told, um, not to be too expressive about those things. Um, so that has always, uh, just been a part of my life. And I, I want to give space for women, especially Black women to be open about what they want and what they, and that doesn't just necessarily mean sexually, but just in their lives in general. Mm-hmm um, because we are told you can't be too obvious. If you say what you want, then you're never gonna get it. Or, or all these different, you know, little rules that come into play when you're trying to be open, uh, about what you want. And then, you know, on the relationship side, in my experience, um, I have had men, you know, once I felt more confident and self-assured, I've had men tell me that they are intimidated by that because they're like, wow, you really know what you want. And then I guess that for them, they get afraid that they can't give me what I want. Right. Because it's like, they can't tell me what I want. I already know what I want. So if they can't, um, implant an idea in my mind, then they're just like super afraid or freaked out. And they, they, I don't know, they get weird about it. And it's just like, well, instead of being upset that you can't tell me what I want, or you can't tell me how to feel, why don't you try your best to give me what I want? And then when you actually do, or if you actually do, you can really pat yourself on the back first, such an amazing job, right? Like—
Aminatou: I mean, that's not what the cultural script says, right. And the cultural script is strong for like in heterosexual relationships is like strong for women. It's also very strong for men and it's diminishing in its own way. Not me feeling sorry for men. Wow. No, no, no, take it back, take it back. Um, but you know what I mean, where it's just it's, it is like, really, it is just really sad that the con, like what p, like patriarchy, like does to all of us, because it just means that everyone is a smaller version of who they could be, like every single one of us. And that is, I think that, that makes me profoundly sad.
Nichole: Yes. And that's part of what I talk about a little bit in the chapter Don't take my roses from me, or I'm talking about the guy who stalked me and that, you know, that relationship started out just strictly, I just wanted him to eat me out and that was it. And I told him that. And then I just got, like, I don't know, I was, I had moved to New York. I was here in New York, um, for the first time. And, uh, again, just like wanting some attention and I let the relationship escalate in a way that was uncomfortable. That was uncomfortable to me, but I was still just like, okay, let me just let me be selfish. Or let me just see how this is gonna go. And it did not go well. Um, and I had to learn or relearn how to stick to what I want, stick to my original plan. This is what I wanted. This is how it should have gone. And I was trying to be nice. Right. I was trying to be that dreaded womanly, nice, um, thing and, and not hurt his feelings, but also he was a, he was a much bigger dude. And so I was afraid of him a little bit. Um, and, uh, it just didn't go, well, it didn't go well for me. And it taught me that I should not compromise myself to make someone else feel good about my discomfort.
Aminatou: Hmm. You know, something that chapter also reinforced for me is something that I've been trying to unlearn a lot in recent years. Just that shame of if a desire that I have has a bad outcome like this, like, oh, I just, um, you know, wanting someone to eat you out is not a crime. Um, and if it results, if it results in criminal activity, AKA stalking, um, it is not my fault because it's not a crime to have desires, you know, but I think that I have just like, I had personally like really internalized that if something bad happened, it is because it was my, like the thing that I wanted was bad or that I caused it, or that I brought it onto myself and really like having to renegotiate that space where it's like, no, no, it's, it's okay to want things. And it is like, everyone gets to, like, everyone has agency in how they act in, um, in these kinds of situations and really having to unlearn, like shouldering all of the blame for something that was going wrong. I think that's something that I've had to do over and over again.
Nichole: And I have, I've had, since then I've had relationships that were just, you know, the guy just comes over and eats me out and leaves. And so I had to make sure that I did not let this one bad situation ruin my pleasure, uh, for the rest of my life, you know, for any extended period of time, and just really had to hold onto this idea that this was this one isolated incident. And I learned my lesson and I can go back to enjoying this particular thing that I enjoy and I will be okay. I can still be safe even after having been unsafe at one point.
Aminatou: Yeah. Not to ask you to like give advice, because that is so clearly not the work that your book is doing but, uh, yeah. And I also also, you know, I just always resent that. Um, whenever yeah, a Black woman writes a book, everyone is like, oh, here's how you're supposed to live life. And you're like, this is not the project, this woman embarked undoing. So please don't project that. But, you know, like I wonder when, um, because you write so candidly and talk, so candidly about sexual desire, how, like, how you have negotiated from yourself, like separating, separating that from shame. That is, you know, because I think that culturally, that is the message that a lot of women receive and for Black women, like the added layer of just, you know, being told that we are fast and being over sexualized, like so young also really, you know, like it contributes for, to some people for like a deep sense of shame or, or really suppressing that desire. But I wonder for you, like, how do you think that you've been able to like, navigate that space and come out on the side of like, being really proactive about your sexual pleasure?
Nichole: Yeah. So I started once I started trying to reclaim my sexuality and what I wanted, I did, I overcorrected, I guess. And I, um, did that thing where it was, was like, well, if guys can do it, I can do it too. And I realized, I did not want to be like a man, cuz men can be terrible. And I didn't, I did not want to embrace the terrible sides of being sexually free or sexually bold. I just wanted the pleasure side of that. And then, so I had to, um, it was really like turning a knob, like going, you know, like trying to figure out the right station on, on the radio to like getting rid of all this static on one side and, you know, moving the dial back to another side, you know, that kind of thing. And, um, it, it took a while and I just learned, um, that I can still express myself. And I guess I do a lot of code switching with how I express myself because I still talk about sex freely, but obviously sometimes some situations I'm not gonna curse as much, or I'm not going to, I'm gonna use more euphemisms and be silly with how I express it, just trial and error with it a, a lot. And I, cause I remember being in college and like trying to have a conversation with my boyfriend and his friends who were all guys and afterwards, um, it was a conversation about dating and, and sex and stuff. And afterwards my boyfriend was just like, um, maybe just chill a little bit on talking about sex with, with, you know, with the guys. And I was like, why? And he was like, because when women talk about sex, men think about having sex with them. And I was just like, nobody's thinking about having sex with me just because I'm talking about sex. And then, you know—
Aminatou: Like they're thinking about it because I'm hot. Hello, first of all. [laughter]
Nichole: But that, that really helps, uh, that really helps me understand why people don't like for women to talk about sex because people just don't know how to separate a woman just talking from, um, from like their own desires of that woman, you know? Um, mm-hmm or their desires for that woman. Uh, I guess I should say. And, um, I don't know. So that kind of changed. It changed the way I think about these things and how I try to be really silly and goofy about it because I think that's another thing that people that confuses people about me. They, they know that I am very bold about sex, but I am not, you know, May West, I am not Rihanna. I am not like Lil Kim or a Nicki Minaj. You know, I don't have this very like vixen appearance and I don't carry myself in that way. You know, I'm not like this Betty Page kind of thing. I'm very old, I'm sorry to, like, I don't have any like current [laughter]
Nichole: But you know, I don't have this like, oh yeah, I'm on to come up and see me sometimes, you know, like that's not how I am and it confuses people because that's all people think if you're bold and you talk about sex, that means you want to have sex all the time. And that you're constantly oozing sex. And I'm like, no, I'm actually really awkward and goofy and silly all the time. And I'm just upfront about sex because I don't know how to be smooth with it. Like, I don't know how to flirt. I'm just kind of like, oh, hi, we find each other attractive right, so do you wanna go back to my place? Like, that's just, that's just it for me. And I'm not smooth with it. And people just, they don't know how to react to me. And I think that throws them off and I hope that it throws them off in such a way that it causes them to think the way they think about women in general being sexual beings. And that we aren't all like vixens just because we enjoy sex. You know, they're, uh, it's the same way that I get frustrated with like feminism and walks and things like that. Like I think fem, you know, it should be about a choice and that being, uh, comfortable in your sexuality does not mean that you are gonna be walking down the street naked and, you know, giving blow jobs out on the street or, you know, just randomly scissoring people on the street. You can still be a monogamous person. You can be an asexual person, but still be upfront about those things. Um, and it should be okay. And I really just want to give room and space to people to express their identities and who they are in a comfortable way that works for them. And that they, you know, feel like they don't have to, they don't have to be one way in order to be sexually confident in or to be, uh, as you know, assured in their sexuality.
Aminatou: Man, Nichole, I could talk to you forever and ever, and ever like truly, and I could talk about these essays for a long time. I've been, I've loved like giving this book to some of my, like really close girlfriends, because much of what you're saying is so, um, it's so deeply of the moment for all of us, you know, and, and, and while I was reading it, I like, I also wondered because so many times you like talk about being, you know, unsure about, you know, what the next step is and just saying like, we'll, I don't know what the solution is, but we'll figure it out. And so, and the answer to so much of that for me, would just, you know, maybe, maybe all that's going on is that getting older actually is a privilege. And the privilege of getting older means that you get to change your mind. You get to have more information, you get to try new things, you get to like, I don't know. It made me feel hopeful about having a future and growing old in a way that I just, um, I hadn't like quite realized. I was like, oh, it's okay to like, want new things. It's okay. To make different decisions. It's, it's okay to have some grace for, you know, the idiot that I used to be when I was like 22, like it's fine. All of it is fine.
Nichole: Yeah. That makes me very happy because that's, that's exactly what I wanted, um, to get across that you just have to keep changing and just like finding new ways to approach the problem. Um, and that we, I think, you know, we have this example, uh, and I say we I'm generation X and maybe some older millennials also have this thing where we've seen our parents or our loved ones, um, you know, in the same situation for 30, 40 years or whatever. And we think that that's what we're supposed to have as well, but we're not the same people. Uh, we change daily. And so we have to be able to change how we approach certain things and just figure out new answers. Um, yeah. And some, sometimes, uh, the solution to the same problem is different. So yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate this. This is, um, thank you for letting me ramble and go all over the place. And I, I just, I'm really glad that the book resonated with you. It means a lot to me.
Aminatou: If this is you rambling, I can't even imagine, um, when you are like, when you're like fully caffeinated, like on top of it, because this was amazing for me. Um, thank you, Nichole. I've just like really enjoyed reading you. And I think this book is it's such a good conversation. And also you said earlier that you didn't think that you were very funny, you were hilarious. Like there was a line, there was a line about like, something about like being like satellite tittles being high, like what, like underlining it and then laugh so hard. And, uh, so yeah, everyone that's listening, you have to buy the book just so you can like read the like funny LOL aside, because there were some like real gems in there.
Nichole: Yeah, my friends and I, we, uh, whenever we get high, we it's like a little competition sometimes, whereas high as satellite titles sometimes, whereas high as comet coochie, we just say these things.
Aminatou: That was so good. I, um, I loved it. Thank you so much, Nichole. I hope you have a lovely rest of your day. Thank you.
Nichole: You too.
[interview ends]
Ann: What a joy, a true joy, like a true, true, true joy and someone who I hope keeps writing forever and ever, and ever because I'm excited to read her and ever, and ever.
Aminatou: Amen. I will see you on the internet.
Ann: See you on the internet.
[outro music]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.