COVID Consent Conversations
12/11/20 - As cases spike in the U.S., we talk to one of our favorite consent experts, sex and dating coach Myisha Battle, about how to have the COVID talk with friends, family, and potential romantic prospects.
The first season of Myisha's podcast, Dating White, is out now.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: COVID CONSENT CONVERSATIONS
[Ads]
(1:44)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman.
Ann: Hi Aminatou Sow. I am very excited about today's episode.
Aminatou: Tell me more.
Ann: You know how sometimes we're like "Wow, this seems like a hard thing. We keep running in circles. Maybe we should talk to an expert." That is what today's episode is, us talking to an expert.
Aminatou: Ooh, tell me who. Who did you talk to?
Ann: Our friend Myisha Battle.
Aminatou: Yes!
Ann: Who is a -- I know. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I'm genuinely surprised and excited about this, that's how unprepared I come to Call Your Girlfriend, but this is very exciting.
(2:25)
Ann: Well listen, we were having a conversation about all of the kind of consent and communication and boundary norms around COVID. Like for me I am obviously reading lots of stuff about, you know, the vaccine and when might we get one and what's going on with epidemiologists and what do they suggest? And what are the terms of the new lockdown in California? I'm reading all that stuff. But really when I think about my day-to-day lived experience in this pandemic a lot of it has to do with navigating boundaries and communication with people in my community, both my friends and in kind of the broader community in which I live and how we are all making different choices based on our lives and our needs and our opinions actually.
[Theme Song]
(3:44)
Ann: And it's really, really hard to do that, to make your own set of choices, set your own boundaries, and then also be in community with people who are on their own path and journey with doing that. And so Myisha who is someone who has a ton of experience in helping people set, navigate, and maintain boundaries and healthy communication in their sex and dating relationships seemed like the perfect person to talk to about this aspect of the pandemic.
Aminatou: This is going to be so good. I'm very excited to listen in.
Ann: Yeah, here's Myisha.
[Interview Starts]
(4:18)
Ann: Myisha thank you so much for being on the show.
Myisha: Thank you so much for having me back.
Ann: Ugh, we are all in a swirling stew of boundaries and communication issues and safety and comfort and all the while really trying to figure out what it means to stay close to the people we want to stay close to, or maybe get close to some new people in this time when all that is so fraught. And so I'm really happy to be talking to you today about all of that.
Myisha: Yeah, it is kind of a quagmire situation and every single person right now has their view of what safety is and what their health means to them and what boundaries need to be in place. So yes it's an opportunity right now to flex those communication muscles and it's not easy but I think people are learning some valuable lessons now that they can use later on in life too.
Ann: So I want to start with maybe something that is kind of specific to the work that you do which is helping people be really fulfilled in their sex and dating lives. I'm wondering what you're hearing from your clients right now about things that are particular to this moment and whether there is something that you find yourself just repeating over and over regardless of the dilemma they're talking to you about.
Myisha: Yes. I mean the first thing that comes up for me is I'm giving a lot of permission for people to date with their values and that means that they can for sure stop chatting with people who don't support anti-racism, who are -- and I think that's a particular aspect of this moment that applies to dating. And it's not COVID-related but I do think it is about enforcing boundaries and also being very selective with the people with whom you're deciding to connect with.
(6:20)
And that's new. I think that what people are asking for on the front-end of dating is a lot more extensive so there's that piece. And then I have clients for whom dating right now actually does present a lot of health challenges and so they've opted out, you know? They're like "I'm going to sit this one out because it's too much of a risk for me. I don't know how to manage my boundaries around this safely in a way that this process is going to make sense for me and feel fun."
Because ultimately at the end of the day you want to be making connections that make what we're all going through better and feel lighter and dating is an opportunity to get that. But if it feels like adding another human and their whole puzzle box of people that they have put together, like trying to manage that into your life feels overwhelming, don't do it.
And then there's another group that is really actively looking for that connection and then figuring out along the way how to implement those checkpoints of safety. So that might look like spending more time in virtual space, chatting, and then moving conversations to text or video chat dates and that process kind of getting prolonged before each person understands what their relative risk are.
(7:50)
So I'm a big advocate of encouraging my clients to take educated risks. You never want to just get so excited that you're jumping at the opportunity to meet up with someone even for a socially-distanced walk. You really want to understand what that ecosystem the person has been living in looks like and feels like and what obligations are they trying to honor? And how can you setup a date that honors both of your obligations to your health?
Ann: Ugh. And, you know, I don't mean to collapse all kinds of relationships and interactions right now but I'm not someone who is dating and when I hear you say that I'm like that all sounds like my life too. That sounds really very relatable of what kinds of interactions are maybe on the far end of my comfort zone but feel necessary, like in a harm reduction way? One example that comes to mind is I have a friend who lives alone who was having a really hard time during election week as many, many people were. Like what a stressful, anxiety-provoking time. And she and I went for a walk and I could just see she was struggling and I just gave her a hug. I had to. And we were both hugged -- we were both hugged. [Laughs] We were but we were masked and we were standing outside. It felt like yeah, this is a violation, like I have not done this for anyone I'm not sharing a household with or with them but it felt like I had to do it. It felt like there was an emotional kind of harm reduction. And I think I would love to hear your take on whether and how to have compassion for ourselves when we think we have a set of boundaries about what we're doing and then a moment presents itself and maybe we make a different choice.
(9:40)
Myisha: Yes. Well I mean what you have touched upon is so good because I think of dating as a way to reduce harm. Mental health harm. We see that social isolation has negative mental health effects across the board and we are in, you know, a pandemic within a pandemic of loneliness and isolation.
So it's hard for me because I see that there is judgment out there of people who date for instance. People think of that as a very non-essential [Laughs] perhaps or frivolous activity but I love how you were like yeah, this just sounds like my life. Yes, it's true, we're all -- you know, we're all just trying to find that connection. I have two friends that I have seen. I have maybe five people that I have seen in the last nine months or so that I do socially distanced walks with and two of whom I have hugged. And, you know, those decisions felt as you described very necessary for our connection at the time. And just also so affirming of our connection and the need to show physically that we were on each other's level. [Laughs]
And it was weird. I'm going to tell you that yeah, it was a weird experience to sort of open that up especially after so long but it was necessary and I do think that when you're taking these educated risks like hugging with masks on with your face turned in opposite directions and not holding that for too long, you know, it's okay.
(11:40)
I think even I had judgments of people and as we're learning more about the higher risks -- higher-risk activities versus the lower-risk activities, actually a hug to me is not falling into those higher-risk activities with a mask on.
Ann: Right, outdoor hug. [Laughs]
Myisha: Right, outdoor hug with masks on. So it's funny because I've even had to shift my sort of controlling and judgmental nature [Laughs] when I'm out in public and taking my walk and I see people who have taken different routes and not worn masks outside. And now I was just reading the New York Times and they're like not wearing a mask when you're out for a walk and socially distanced and more than six feet away from people is fine. And I'm like oh, okay, I guess I can take back all those mean mugs I was giving people.
You know, I'm guilty of it too but I think every single person right now has been called to figure out what feels right for them and it requires a lot of communication. I would not have hugged those people if I did not feel that we were very much aligned in the ways we were taking care of ourselves and our partners or families. So these are people that I have a deep level of trust with. I have to add that too.
Ann: Yeah, let's talk about that alignment because I think one thing that I have really learned this way is that short hands like "We're being super careful too" or "We haven't seen anyone" or "I have been so distant," phrases like that, really do mean different things to different people. Even people I'm very values-connected with, we all care about doing everything we can do to keep ourselves and our community safe. But at the end of the day that might mean really different things about the specifics of coming inside to use the bathroom if we're hanging out outside someone's house for example or eating food prepared by someone else or doing takeout. There's just a lot of little examples of places where yes we share values and yes we are aligned in how we're living generally but I have been surprised a lot by small choices or things that tend to crop up. Nothing huge, like I'm not friends with anyone who's going to an indoor church service or something like that without a mask. Those are my relatives, not my immediate friends. [Laughs]
Myisha: Right.
(14:20)
Ann: But yeah, I'm wondering about your advice for actually getting confirmation that you might be on the same page about how you're living. Not just your values but the choices you're making.
Myisha: Yeah. I mean I talk about my choices all the time so even when -- recently I've developed sort of cold symptoms that to me registered as an inner ear infection and I was recounting the story to people because the nurse who was on the call line was basically like you either have a mild cold or you have mild COVID, like just literally after 30 seconds of talking to me. So I'm telling people hey, this is what I do. I go for a walk with a mask on every single day. I go to the Walgreens which is at the end of the block and I go to Safeway for groceries. That's the extent of my social interaction and has been pretty much since the summer. [Laughs]
I have a partner who works in food service but he is not -- you know, he doesn't have any symptoms. I'm sort of somebody who's like where's the COVID? Where's the COVID in this situation? So when I was describing that to a friend they were like "Listen, if you had COVID I'd be really worried for myself because what you just described is exactly how I go about life and those are the precautions that I'm taking. So I'd be really freaked out right now if you had COVID."
(15:52)
So it's things like that, like I volunteer almost TMI because I want to invite the conversation for people to tell me what they're doing. It's a little sly coachy trick where I'm like oh, I'm doing this and I always have my hand sanitizer. Or like we rented a zip car and I wiped the entire thing down and drove around with our masks on and the windows down. That kind of thing where I'm very explicit. And that's the kind of explicit question asking that I am 100 percent comfortable doing when making plans with anyone to see them.
So, you know, I've even had friends who say "Do you want to go for a socially-distanced walk for one hour around your neighborhood?" I'm like "Yes, you come to me, I meet you, we are six feet apart. That is the rule." And there are definitely exceptions where maybe the plan changes in the middle but that is only after a discussion of what people are comfortable with.
So your example of "Do you need to come in and use my bathroom?" that is something I have offered people and they can say yes or no to that based on their relative comfort with it. And it's been the same for me, I've hung out with people in their neighborhood and they've been like "If you need to you can use my restroom. I'm okay with that."
And so that offer gets a little bit of conversation again. At that point if we're already hanging out we would've already had a conversation about our relative risk exposure. And, you know, that's kind of the best we can do. These are words. You know, this stuff is complicated and what one person means when they say we're being careful when their circumstances are completely different. Perhaps they're not immunocompromised. Perhaps they don't have a relative who is immunocompromised or a partner who's immunocompromised living in the household with them but you do.
(18:00)
So you need to understand what their risk exposure is so that you can make an educated risk assessment. This is the public health person in me coming out. [Laughter] This is my health educator. You know, I am so fucking grateful for my microbiology class and my epidemiology class in college. I am thriving because I understand how these things work and it has empowered me to have these conversations because I'm like "Look, we're not joking. We're not fooling around here. This thing is killing people and we all have different levels of exposure and different risks that we're willing to take on." So we have to talk about that.
Ann: And it's funny you bring up science because one reason we wanted to talk to you and not an epidemiologist is because what we understand about safety is evolving and what everyone's personal safety needs are is evolving. And so for me the real scale is not how do I acquire the latest science about what's happening with this pandemic? For me it's more about how do I adapt myself as I get new information and how do I react to the people I'm in community with about what they need? And I'm wondering if you have thoughts about that agility or flexibility that each of us needs as well because that's a part of this right? We need to set boundaries for our own safety and those of the community we're in but also things are changing. Things feel really, really different in terms of the info we have now than they did in say March and April.
(19:45)
Myisha: Yes. I worry for those people who have latched on to whatever they learned in March or April and are living by the same standards because I don't think they would be very mentally well right now. [Laughs] I think they would be very anxious and not adapting like you said to the changing information that we had. Before surfaces were a really big concern and they're just not anymore. This is the science and this is how we learn how to make adjustments to keep ourselves well both mentally and physically is by understanding okay, science is doing the best. Scientists are doing their best to give us information about how this disease is acting and evolving because that's exactly what they do. That's how they survive and it will evolve. And we too have to evolve with it.
So this new information that we get has to be incorporated into the day-to-day. And again this is stuff I geek out on and love to talk about so I'm like oh, did you know we thought this but now it's this? It's exciting for me, you know, as weird as that sounds. But it is, it's interesting to me and therefore also helpful for me to feel like I am making for lack of a better term empowered choices. That I'm not just subject to my own fears and anxieties about this but I am taking in information, processing it, and using it to the best of my ability to take care of myself. And that feels very empowering.
(21:50)
Ann: This is perhaps very different for you and me -- you're in the Bay area and I'm in Los Angeles -- than it is for people who might be living in an environment where the kind of broader social culture is less interested in defining safety the way they are, you know? I think about my parents who are in Iowa and they kind of are always middle of the roaders. If our more liberal friends are doing X and our more conservative friends are doing Y we're going to occupy the middle and that's the safe place. And it's like that's not really how science works, or politics, let's be real, but they're living in this environment where they're kind of calibrating based on these two differing opinions maybe or different camps of what is safety right now?
And one thing I've been thinking about a lot is the way our social group, the city we're in, the kind of culture we're steeped in affects maybe what we think is safe and also how easy it is to assert what safety looks like for us. And based on your experience and maybe counseling people on having to communicate boundaries that might not be understood right away, like the importance of them, or having to kind of breach a gap when they describe what they need from a relationship or an interaction, do you have people who are dealing with those who aren't say "Oh yeah, we're being careful too?" Or people who are maybe a little bit further from where you're at?
Myisha: Yeah, I mean . . . [Laughs]
Ann: [Laughs]
Myisha: I actually had not thought about this theory that is a kind of very interesting sociological theory until this morning when I was thinking about our conversation. And it's called tera management theory. Essentially the idea is when you raise people's awareness of their own mortality they tend to act more in alignment with their in group. And we have seen this throughout our country. We already had a very divided population and the awareness of our mortality, the mortality of our loved ones, the mortality of our community has been raised to such a high degree that I think people are making choices that they feel are within their own interest of survival and their group's interest in survival.
(24:25)
So we have to kind of understand that which is difficult to understand because survival means different things for different people. To share, my mom lives in Traverse City, Michigan and we were talking about how they've actually been closed for outdoor dining and indoor dining for over a week or so I believe and San Francisco has just implemented that as of today. But there were restaurants that all banded together and said "We're not closing. We're going to be open. You guys can come. We want you here."
And so their mode of survival is their business. You know, so many people's mode of survival is keeping their financial security alive. That's the survival. And it's interesting to be in a position right now to be trying to understand why someone would take risks during a time when so many people are getting infected and getting hospitalized but I turn to the psychology and sociology of this moment to sort of understand that we're all in fear mode and fear does different things to different people. And fear combined with lack of real basic health education that we all get, I don't think a lot of people understand regular disease transmission modes and histories of this.
(25:58)
I mean plagues are nothing new, right? Most of us read about them from a very young age. But I don't think there's this internalization of what that means in today's context. And so it's hard. All that is to say it's very difficult to have conversations with people who have a different understanding of what this moment is. And all you can do is speak to what you're doing and that will give you a lot of information because if you're telling your cousin "Hey I want to see you and your kids. Here's what we're doing over here. Make sure that when we meet up with people the kids actually -- they play separately. We do parallel play and we're all in masks and we're making sure that if they touch any surfaces we're hand sanitizing them. We eat separately. Is that okay with you?" I mean you will be able to register on their face whether or not they think you're crazy [Laughter] and that you're taking too many precautions. And you can say "You know, if that doesn't sound like a fun hang for you that's okay. I think we can organize a Zoom call."
So this is the part where I think we have to use all of ourselves. We have to use our compassion. We have to use our understanding of our own risk. We have to use our communication skills and we have to use that negotiation power too to get to a place where we can still maintain connection but do it in a healthy and safe way. And that is not always easy with people who think we're taking things too seriously, or we're not taking things serious enough. My general rule of thumb for hanging out with people is if this seems like it's not going to be a relief to both of us let's not do it.
Ann: Ugh, that's such a good barometer.
(28:05)
Myisha: Yeah. If this isn't going to feel good and restorative for everybody involved because of what we're deciding we're going to do to stay safe let's not do it. Let's postpone this until we can do something where everyone is on the same page of how we can engage with one another.
Ann: I love that. I mean I've really been trying to practice with friends who -- because there are people in my life who are outside my very most inner circle who I haven't seen all year. You know, people who I would normally -- you know your three times a year party friends?
Myisha: Yes.
Ann: Who I love and adore but who are not that kind of direct and immediate connection who I'm relying on day-to-day. And as we get deeper into this and I think about maybe trying to see some of those people distantly I have been really thinking about putting very much up front in the invitation. Not like "Hey, do you want to do an outside hang or walk?" but like saying "Hi, how would you feel about a non-masked walk for 30 minutes and then sitting in the park six feet apart for whatever?" Being very precise about what I am inviting someone to do. And then that allows them, because we haven't been in daily contact, to calibrate themselves and kind of be like "Actually I'm not seeing anyone and this is wild so no." Or to say like "Okay, I guess you're being more careful than I am or more concerned about certain things than I am and I will take that under advisement."
Myisha: Exactly. Then you get to have that back-and-forth. I've definitely had dear friends who are like "I'll pick you up and we can go for a hike." And I'm like "Actually I'd love for you to meet me in my neighborhood because I don't have a car." So people who have cars, you come to me. We can walk. There's lots of hills. That's fine. But yeah, I was very uncomfortable being in cars with people that I didn't share air space with in my home at the beginning of this and now I've taken maybe three Lyfts for kind of business purposes and that's been okay. I don't know, it's one of those things where I'm constantly having a conversation with myself about what I'm getting myself into. And, you know, trying to do my best to lovingly communicate that to whoever's involved. Like I want to see you, I obviously want to see you, but I don't want to get in a car with you and here's my counter offer.
(30:40)
And these are basically the cornerstones of consent conversations that we talk about in the sexology world, right? I'd love to cuddle with you but I'm not down for anything sexual tonight, you know? Here's my boundary. And oh, well I don't really want to cuddle but perhaps we can sit on the couch and hold hands. That sort of thing. It's like really engaging in the minutia of what is okay here? And then in the moment being able to adjust, you know? Because you have to pee and it's like I've got to go to the bathroom and you're offering me a bathroom. I'll just wash my hands really thoroughly and use hand sanitizer and yeah. That's rough.
Ann: Let's talk about judgment a little bit because I think -- a friend of mine texted a group chat that we're on and basically was like "What is one thing that you have judged someone for in this pandemic and what's one thing you felt super judged for?" And it really got me thinking about that aspect of things. And also self-judgment.
Myisha: Yeah.
Ann: There's also now a lot of things I read where people get a positive COVID diagnosis and have a lot of self-judgment about what did I do wrong or how was I unsafe? And I'm wondering about your advice for navigating and diffusing judgment of ourselves and others right now.
Myisha: Okay, but first should we do this? You've already heard what I judge people for which is not wearing masks outside when they go for walks which now apparently according to the New York Times is totally fine as long as you're more than six feet away.
Ann: [Laughs] And what is something you have felt judged for?
(32:25)
Myisha: I went to a friend's pop-up. He and a group of friends took over a bar space that decided to not open during the pandemic, to not stay open, so they basically created a business that operated from this space. And I went there for outdoor dining and it's not that I felt judged. I made that call because I wanted to support my friend. This is something that I've even toyed around going into business with him because I fucking love him so much and want him to succeed. It turns out this pop-up was featured in the SF Chronicle, you know? People are taking advantage of this moment and banding together and creating things. And I love his food and I love his choice in wine and I went but I was like really worried about posting anything about it. I think that was in a time when I did have more judgment about people who dine out in general and that was one of two times that I've eaten at a restaurant, like done outdoor dining during this time. So yeah, I carried a little guilt with me of even going out to support a friend right now, you know? And that sucks but it's like yeah, it was, I don't know, people were walking by and I was worried they were like "Ah, fucking yuppy." So whatever. That's my own shit. [Laughs]
Ann: Yeah, I think I have experienced some judgment around things like that too of like this is not essential nor does it even feel emotionally essential in the sense of me describing hugging a friend. That felt essential but in a different way. I'm talking about times I have gone to a store that is not a grocery store, that is not a drug store, with a mask on, not doing outdoor dining. But, you know, just the idea that I'm inhabiting a physical space I don't really need to be inhabiting right now.
Myisha: Yeah.
Ann: You know, and I think there is like a minor pleasure reward of that of like oh yeah, my old life where I was a body in the world [Laughs] as opposed to a human on the screen or a two-dimensional human on the screen. I think I definitely have had some self-judgment about that. I've been to one estate sale in this pandemic. It was relatively empty and I don't feel it was a huge risk but I definitely judge myself of like hey, I'm probably supporting something that doesn't need to be happening right now in person. And I have more complex feelings about outdoor dining because these are businesses I really want to survive. These are workers I really want to survive. It gets a lot more complex when I pull the lens out and think about this greater economic and livelihood picture and not just my personal health.
(35:15)
Myisha: Yes. It's funny because as you say that and having a partner who works in food service and a lot of his community does too I wish that all of us who had overly cautious feelings about outdoor dining actually did more outdoor dining and those who are like "Fuck it, I need to feel human and get wasted in public again," I wish those people just didn't. Because one of the friends that we actually ran into on a walk in our neighborhood, he lives in the neighborhood so he was in the garage with his wife and we were on the sidewalk kind of yelling at each other, he just had the spot he was working at close so he's kind of evaluating what his options are. Like closed permanently. And he was like this whole experience has made me have so much hope for humanity but I fucking hate people.
Ann: [Laughs]
Myisha: So yeah, I mean that kind of sums up how I feel about outdoor dining too. Like ugh, it's a lot. But yeah, I think to answer your question about this judgment, you know, I think there's not much we can do except acknowledge that it is a part of this. Humans are judgy. We look to see what other people have, what they don't have, what they're doing, what they're not doing. Social media is a clusterfuck of judgment. Just like an ouroboros of judgment, you know?
(37:05)
And right now that has become a major mode of connection for people who aren't seeing other people very much and we take our norm cues from what we see. So if you're in an area where people aren't wearing that many masks -- I'm watching a bunch of reality TV that takes place across the country and they're just now airing shows that take place during the pandemic so I'm like wow, okay, in these southern states people were out at restaurants not wearing masks at the early stages of the pandemic. Interesting. We didn't do it that way.
But yeah, it's interesting to sort of check that vibe that you're getting, like that judgment vibe of well these folks who were in charge decided that this was the risk that they wanted to expose their group to and this is how it looked and felt for these people and our governing bodies over here in California felt differently and this is how they did it. And, you know, we can talk about what it would have looked like to have any type of organized response to this thing. It would've been great but that's not what we had, you know?
So that's where we're going to see a lot of judgment come up and unfortunately that's also where we're going to see a lot of division in who's doing what and why and there's always in this country a political allegiance that seems to indicate why people are doing certain behaviors and why they're not. That becomes even more of a reason to criticize right now, right?
Ann: I find myself thinking about what you were saying earlier about everyone feeling like they're in mortal fear and judgment being such a natural response to that. You know, it's kind of like watching a movie where some disaster unfolds or a horror movie where you're like "I wouldn't walk in that basement. I would definitely be smarter than that." And in real-time things are very different. I'm also thinking about how the compounded traumas of this year and this pandemic may have made it more difficult for some people who are dealing with personal traumas or things in their past or their history. I know this is something you deal with a lot with your clients about working through things that may be traumatic in their past as they move forward in their sex and dating lives. I'm just wondering if you have thoughts about some skills or maybe some ways to find compassion or a path through those issues?
(40:00)
Myisha: Yes, absolutely. That's an excellent question. I at the beginning of the pandemic was invited to join a 21-day Deepak Chopra meditation group and I kind of did it begrudgingly. I really liked it and part of the exercise was that you create your own group and so I looped my family in on this. I was like my mom's kind of into meditation, a couple of my aunts, so I created a group with them and we did maybe a 14-day together. And now they have been doing these for the entire time and I'm just looping back in with them to do a 21-day one for the holidays.
A lot of my work with clients is helping them to find ways to be more mindful and more present because this moment right now is highlighting a lot of anxiety for people. If you're already predisposed to anxiety and depression which a lot of us are it is heightening everything and anxiety is sort of generally described as worrying about the future, worrying about events that are beyond our control, and there's a lot that is beyond our control right now.
Ann: 100 percent of things, yeah. [Laughter] Like 99.
Myisha: Depression. Yeah, 99 percent of things are completely out of our control and highlighted as such in a way that has not been like -- I feel like a lot of people went through the world feeling like they had a lot of control over their lives and this is showing us maybe not so much which is scary. Depression tends to be more about or linked with ruminations on the past, you know? Things we could've one differently or behaviors that we wish we hadn't done that have led to where we are now. Just, you know, lamentation.
(42:10)
There's something so jarring to the system, to the body, about rooting into the moment and it's a difficult practice but mindfulness helps you to do that. And I think this is a practice that can -- it's free, number one. Anybody can do it. I've been practicing mindfulness in various forms for several years and I'm not a "meditator" but I do meditate. My therapist thinks I show meditate more and she's right, I should. So that's why I've joined these kind of groups that help you to sort of stay on track and commit to it. I have a Head Space account too that I use kind of when needed. They have great crisis moment meditations that I use when I'm a bit overwhelmed and sort of in panic mode which can happen and has happened quite frequently in my house.
And so, yeah, this is also a way to get out of judgment honestly. There is something about connecting to yourself as an entity here and now that also offers some compassion and understanding to the fact that everyone is just in this cycle with you, you know? everyone is doing what they're doing because of their predisposition to this moment and then living under the conditions that they have.
And as we know if you are a person of color, if you are black specifically, this moment has been incredibly hard and I offer that to anyone who is struggling in this moment to find a mindfulness practice that works for you and to meditate as much as you can to try to gain that sort of sense that like we're here. We're still here. [Laughs] We're still fucking here and there are those of us who are not here. And, you know, what do we do with that? That's the next question and that'll be revealed in the next phase of this as we do get a vaccine out to people and people start to feel that sense of safety again. But until that point we need to maintain. We need to be sort of like getting as many tools as we can to manage what's going on because it's a lot for most of us and it's even more for those of us who are black, period.
(45:05)
Ann: Right. These big forces that you're describing or these factors that you're describing are not disappearing in the new year and are not disappearing even when the first people start getting a vaccine. This is our lives, these are our questions, and we're going to need these coping mechanisms probably indefinitely.
Myisha: Yeah. I think coping mechanisms, that's a great way to put it. When I say maintained I don't mean stay composed. [Laughter] I mean, you know -- because I don't think . . . that's unreasonable, right? To maintain to me means to keep ourselves in a state where we are capable of connecting and taking care of ourselves to the best of our ability so we can take care of the ones we love around us too.
Ann: Ugh, what a beautiful note to end on. Myisha thank you so much.
Myisha: Oh thank you. This was great. I love talking to you.
Ann: I love talking to you. This is my meditation for the day. [Laughter]
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: Ugh, Myisha. So, so, so good and so relevant and just so affirming. I am really glad that you got to talk to her.
Ann: Yeah, she is really the best. You can find her on her website myishabattle.com. She has a podcast called Dating White. The first season is out now and the second season is forthcoming. And you can also find her on Instagram and all your social media places because she is great at answering questions and being in communication about her own work. So if you have real-time questions that I didn't ask in my conversation with her she is very accessible and brilliant.
Aminatou: I will see you on the Internet boo-boo.
Ann: See you on the Internet. That fits well within my boundaries.
Aminatou: We love boundaries. You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.