Nourishment
11/27/20 - We are enjoying this slow season, grateful for what we have and opening our wallets for those who experience food insecurity. In the first of two episodes about food justice, we discuss our Thanksgiving feels and talk with Ebony Derr, financial manager at the Okra Project, which nourishes Black trans people with meals and community. Plus, our favorite Thanksgiving movies, what we're eating, and flashpoint feelings around okra (the food itself).
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
TRANSCRIPT: NOURISHMENT
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. One thing I have always really loved about this holiday for myself is the real prompt to slow down and be grateful for the vast amount of love and resources and safety and comfort in my life.
Aminatou: A lot of people cannot either afford to do that or do not have family structures that allow for that kind of just traditional the fake like what Thanksgiving should be, like that image. And this year like a lot of past years I have made a decision that I am not shopping on Black Friday because I actually don't need anything and it really just illustrates again this culture of excess that we live in. And instead I have tried to really redirect my money towards causes that I really care about or give it to people who are doing good work. And one of these organizations is The Okra Project which is a wonderful org that basically combats food insecurity in the black transgender community. And so to that end today I talked to Ebony Derr who is the financial manager at The Okra Project and she just really, really blew my mind and is such a wonderful person and has so much to say about the issue of food insecurity within the trans community, about how we can all better show up. It just really showed me the possibilities of really investing in something over the long term.
[Theme Song]
(2:10)
Aminatou: Hello!
Ann: Hello. Happy Thanksgiving, are we saying that? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, happy Thanksgiving. Happy day after Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving I will say in the canon of American holidays is my favorite holiday from a social standpoint but you can't stand too hard because it's not great.
Ann: It's not great. Regardless of not being able to do the normal things we might be doing this time of year I am still excited for the break from work and from the everyday, like I'm kind of excited for a further slowdown. Any minor change to the schedule's exciting so I guess I'm still appreciating it on that front even though I'm not having in-person dinner or traveling or seeing people outside of my household.
Aminatou: I have to say Thanksgiving dinner, it's a dinner I like. It's just a dinner I like. It's all the starches I like. I actually don't know this about you, Ann: what is your favorite Thanksgiving -- like a food that you like at Thanksgiving?
Ann: I mean as evidenced by my cavalier attitude about sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner in general as you have witnessed firsthand in years past . . .
Aminatou: I mean it is truly -- it's like one big place that we differ.
Ann: Yes. I have to say as someone who does not eat turkey and, you know, I really love the sides. You won't be surprised to hear a vegetable side is really key to me. Love a buttery roll. Preferably made at home, like the past couple years that I've hosted Thanksgiving I have made some rolls from scratch and that brings me a lot of joy. You will also not be surprised to hear that I really enjoy the kind of long game of a languorous snack and cocktail hour followed by a meal, like followed by a break, followed by a buffet of desserts. I really enjoy the production of it all.
(4:00)
But the actual what is on the table for a traditional American Thanksgiving dinner is of largely little interest to me. It's like the same vegetable sides that I would enjoy eating any other time of year that don't really feel particular to Thanksgiving. It's like that's like when I say I'm not a pet person people are always scandalized when I'm like "Thanksgiving food? I'm not interested." [Laughter]
Aminatou: I mean listen, here's the deal about the food: as someone who eats meat I don't fuck with turkey. Turkey is just not . . . she does not make an appearance on my Thanksgiving table traditionally.
Ann: She's not hydrated. You only like things that are fully hydrated. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yeah, no, she is just not a star. The one time -- like I've never liked a turkey and the one time I enjoyed a turkey was someone made a deep fried turkey in Texas and I had it and I was like "Oh, this girl tastes different." But then you see how it's made and you're like I'm not trying to burn this entire town down. Deep fried turkey has the same fire potential as gender reveal so no thank you. It is just not worth it. Yeah, she is boring.
I don't know, but I also really like stuffing and the only time in my life I eat stuffing is at Thanksgiving. It occurs to me that you could probably have it any day but I really like . . . I like the fact that, you know, I have it within this 48-hour window in my life and that's about it. Then the fall vegetables are good but if I'm honest Thanksgiving food to me is not super exciting; it's just the immaculate vibes of what a Thanksgiving dinner can be or Thanksgiving day can be with people you like. That is truly what I enjoy about it because if you are like us and you get to enjoy a reprieve from work and a slowdown kind of in your life which is such a privilege.
Ann: Totally.
(5:52)
Aminatou: I get to spend some deep dive with people who are like my family and I really enjoy that. I enjoy that we get to eat in this specific way, enjoy that we get to cook together, and yeah, you're right, it's like the production of Thanksgiving is good and the production value of my Thanksgivings has been iconic over the years save that one Thanksgiving you and I spent together. [Laughter]
Ann: Okay that's still great production value, just in a very different way.
Aminatou: That Thanksgiving did not have great production value at all and honestly I cannot -- if there was ever a moment in our friendship where I was like wow, this is the make or break? Like this is the flop era of this friendship. That Thanksgiving dinner was the flop era of our friendship.
Ann: I love it because it actually occurred during a very strong and robust era of our friendship, like the emotional swap era of our friendship was a very different time. [Laughter] Like if that Thanksgiving dinner hadn't occurred, like if I hadn't been so . . .
Aminatou: Ann, I had a tuna sandwich that Thanksgiving dinner. Like no thank you.
Ann: I know, I had lukewarm mac and cheese from the hot bar at Albertson's. I know. Truly, truly something that I think proved the strength of our friendship in that moment. But yeah, I don't know, I do feel like some of this is the banality and horror of whiteness where I was talking to a friend about her Chinese-American Thanksgiving dishes and I was like that sounds fucking amazing. Like I actually think my issue is with my particular cultural inheritance of Thanksgiving dishes and when I am back to doing Thanksgiving with groups I'm going to be looking a little harder at like how have other people been celebrating this holiday for years and years and years? Not just throw in some new veggie sides but let's rethink this from top to bottom.
(7:45)
Aminatou: I mean I don't want to get into a polemic about what white people food (TM) is. I don't want to ruin my day or start anything. It's like the traditional dishes of Thanksgiving can be very boring but also you can make it whatever you want to make it. I miss the people. I miss traveling. Thanksgiving is usually a time for me when I'm not home. This is I think my first Thanksgiving in New York ever actually, ever at all. Over a decade, first time. You know, and that's going to be weird. I'm just longing for a trip with chosen family where you get to just have this ritual and be together but also not to always be this person during quarantine I feel really lucky that I get to have a Thanksgiving at all, you know? A semblance of Thanksgiving at all. And for as cheesy as it is good things still happened for me this year. And some years you really have to sit with the fact that the year is hard but you're still here and reflecting on that I think for me at least every year has been really powerful.
Ann: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean I fully echo that. One thing I have always really loved about this holiday for myself is the real prompt to slow down and be thankful for the vast amount of love and resources and safety and comfort in my life. So that is definitely perhaps truer this year than any other year when we were doing camera-ready spreads at dinner with our loved ones in person.
Aminatou: The only thing that is going to remain is I'm still going to watch The Big Chill, my favorite movie about white people, and I'm very excited about that. Some traditions just never die.
Ann: I mean what a great tradition. I should develop a movie-related Thanksgiving tradition. That sounds extremely comforting and something . . . I've got to say that's another thing I love about a holiday like this, the idea that I could just start this. I'm like yeah, I don't have a movie that I watch every Thanksgiving but it's time to declare one and that's just going to be a comforting tradition moving forward. I love it. I really -- yeah, the DIY aspect of holidays like this.
(10:12)
Aminatou: I mean Addams Family Values all the way for you.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: In the canon of Thanksgiving movies I believe that is the highest watermark for Thanksgiving movies.
Ann: Yes. I also don't think it necessarily has to be explicitly related to the holiday. I mean I feel like I associate the blockbuster movies of the 1970s with Christmas with my mother and her siblings because it's what my aunts and uncles would put on when we're all just sitting around, so that's how I watched Star Wars or whatever, you know? And so it doesn't necessarily have to be a movie that is directly tied to the holidays so much as what brings comfort to me? Maybe I'll pick something that's like an extravagant food movie and that will be a Thanksgiving watch. I'm thinking about this.
Aminatou: I mean you have so many options here. You've Got Mail is technically a Thanksgiving movie.
Ann: What?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: I do not remember that at all.
Aminatou: Knives Out, Thanksgiving movie. Sweet November, Thanksgiving movie.
Ann: Oh my god, Sweet November. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Scent of a Woman, Thanksgiving movie. If you want a ridiculous action movie what is that movie called? Tower Heist is a Thanksgiving movie. And then there's the entire rom-com canon of movies where someone goes home and -- you know, someone goes home to their small town and sleeps with everyone, with someone or everyone. There's all those. Mistress America is a Thanksgiving movie.
Ann: I don't even know what Mistress America is.
(11:52)
Aminatou: Oh my god, great Greta Gerwig movie. Come on, how have you not watched the white people canon of Thanksgiving movies? This is wild. Woody Allen's Hannah and Her Sisters is an iconic Thanksgiving movie but a controversial recommendation. So if you can separate the art from the artist, a revisit, and if not that is also fine.
Ann: Separating the art from the artist I do feel like a canonical Thanksgiving challenge.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: That is really truly beyond the realm of movies, you know what I mean?
Aminatou: White supremacy. White supremacy. Can you separate the art from the artist? [Laughter] Oh! And oh my god, what is that Sarah Jessica Parker movie where she fucks up the frittata, you know what I'm talking about?
Ann: The Family Stone, yes.
Aminatou: Yes, The Family Stone. Isn't that iconic?
Ann: But isn't that a Christmas movie?
Aminatou: Is it Christmas or Thanksgiving? Now I can't remember.
Ann: I thought it was Christmas but I mean, look, I am as established far from an expert.
Aminatou: You know what Ann? You are probably right. It is probably Christmas because there was snow. But you know, who knows? Who cares? That movie is ridiculous and once upon a time on Tumblr Bobby Finger wrote the best review of it and I will go and find it after this and probably watch it.
Ann: Okay, I just Googled and there are many images of Diane Keaton with a high-necked collared shirt in front of a Christmas tree so I think that solves that right there.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You're right, there's two kinds of rom-coms: either you go home for Thanksgiving and you sleep with everyone or you go home for Christmas and you sleep with everyone. But also it's okay to watch a Christmas movie at Thanksgiving. The season is now open.
Ann: Fully.
Aminatou: Well here's the deal: Thanksgiving movies, good food, confrontation with white supremacy in general, and being really confronted with the fact that we live with very deep inequality, that is obviously manifested even in the way that we talk about food at all is about excess. And so much about Thanksgiving is about excess. It's just like oh my god, gorge and there's always like 20 dishes on the table and all of these things and that does not really line up with the reality that actually a lot of people cannot either afford to do that or do not have, you know, family structures that allow for that kind of just traditional the fake what Thanksgiving should be, like that image. And indulging in that fantasy is, for whatever, for the day, is maybe good. But I think that it would behoove all of us not to suspend everything that we know about the fact that this season is hard for a lot of people. It's hard for people who are not settled in whatever their family structures are. It's hard for people who are struggling with financial realities. It's hard for people who have mental health issues. It's just hard.
(14:50)
Ann: No, it is hard. And it's also hard for people who are not sort of acutely hungry or in pain right now to really square the fact that they/we -- I'm talking about myself here -- are doing okay at a time when a lot of people are not for really, really deep, structural reasons that we're all working on and voting on and marching on and organizing on, right? But then there is also this short-term aspect and I think that we're really interested in this episode and the subsequent episode in talking about some of the people who are kind of stepping into that void and saying like look, we do not live in a society that makes sure that everyone's basic human right to a full stomach is met; here's what we're going to do in the interim.
And I think it's always helpful for me to hear from people who are stepping into that void because I think it feels so crucial as we're doing this long-game work which we're always talking about to figure out a way to also acknowledge the current reality and to really step up and say like it's not enough to take a moment to say that we're grateful for all we have. There is also a short-term requirement wherein if you are living in relative comfort right now figuring out how to extend a little bit more comfort to someone who is not.
(16:15)
Aminatou: And this year like a lot of past years I have made the decision that I'm not shopping on Black Friday because I actually don't need anything and it really just illustrates again this culture of excess that we live in. And instead I have really tried to redirect my money towards causes that I really care about or give it to people who are doing good work. And one of these organizations is The Okra Project which is a wonderful org that basically combats food insecurity in the black transgender community. They've been doing some wonderful work around resistance and urbanism and really highlighting how we can all show up to be better stewards of the worlds that we are living in. And so to that end today I talked to Ebony Derr who is the financial manager at The Okra Project and she just really, really blew my mind and is such a wonderful person and has so much to say about the issue of food insecurity within the trans community, about how we can all better show up. It just really showed me the possibilities of really investing in something over the long term.
Ann: And also something very specific, right? Instead of just saying black trans folks matter or whatever saying like no, this is a really specific way I'm going to show up for that community.
Aminatou: Yep. Here is Ebony in her own words.
[Interview Starts]
Ebony: My name is Ebony Derr and I'm the financial manager at The Okra Project.
Aminatou: Hi Ebony. I would love to hear how you became involved working at The Okra Project.
(18:00)
Ebony: Sure. So I had started off as just a follower of The Okra Project like many of us are. I had followed them on Twitter for about a year or so and they just ended up posting online that they were working for people to work with them and how could I turn down the opportunity to work in service of my fellow black trans people?
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, I was reading recently this really disturbing figure that about 34 percent I believe of black trans people report that they're living in extreme poverty. I'm wondering if you could talk a little about what the factors are that contribute to that number.
Ebony: I mean I think that the biggest factor that contributes to that number is the fact that blackness and transness, when they come together, it's this very interesting intersection of we live in a society that very much so forces both of those identities to exist on a margin. And so it's like when you exist on a margin that means that in order to actually be comfortable in your identity and true you have to sacrifice so many things and that's so poor in access to even just other people let alone those other people being able to give you a job or letting you sign a lease or even just showing up for you and determining that you're even worthy of acknowledgment, you know? So I think that number definitely comes from just, you know, just the simple fact that we live in a society that really demonizes that identity and when you're demonized and marginalized what else can be done?
Aminatou: Hmm. The mission of The Okra Project says that The Okra Project is a collective that seeks to face the global crisis faced by black trans people by bringing homecooked, healthy, and culturally specific meals and resources to black trans people wherever we can reach them. What is a culturally specific meal?
(19:55)
Ebony: I think that when it comes down to culturally specific that really means you recognize this. So it's not like we're just bringing you food, like it's just a cooking drive and someone is just preparing something that is there for everyone. We are coming to your home to create a meal for you. What do you want to eat? Or rather what does the background of the individual chef, you know, what do they offer in their ability to be able to prepare for you? Really being able to just open the lines of that communication where it's not just feeding someone, giving someone a meal, it's sharing a meal. It's actually having that conversation and that dialogue be possible.
Aminatou: Ugh, I . . . you know, that's so important and I think something that's so powerful also. It's just this idea that someone actually comes into your home to cook for you which that feels like a real luxury almost. That's the way that we've always framed that like oh, you have a private chef or your life is really luxurious. But I love the framing around this is actually how you create community and also this is a luxury that can be afforded to anyone in any community. And I'm sure there is a very . . . there's like a really powerful explanation for why it's framed that way.
Ebony: Yes there definitely is. In fact it's even just so relevant that we're having this discussion around Thanksgiving because it was around the holidays around three years ago when our founder Ian felt this call to even form The Okra Project. It was initially formed just to be a very short-term project, like literally project, that was just supposed to help alleviate the loneliness that people were feeling around the holidays, black trans people, because they didn't have homes to go to to begin with let alone families in them that were creating meals with them and sharing meals with them and having that space of feeling like, you know, support.
(22:00)
And so The Okra Project was started wholly to offer that space, to offer the space of here is somebody who is in your home with you to share time with you during the holidays. You're not alone. You have your community and you have the support and backing of that. That was something that was just so deeply needed not just around the holidays but 365 days a year. Black trans people need that support and it's proven by the fact that The Okra Project is not just a project anymore. It is a coalition now. We're here to stay and so long as black trans people need to be fed we've been and will continue to be feeding them.
Aminatou: How has the pandemic changed the way that you are operating?
Ebony: So the pandemic has definitely changed a lot about The Okra Project. The way that The Okra Project existed before the pandemic is definitely not the same now. There have been a lot of challenges but also so many successes. Right now our biggest challenge is our direct chef services. That's changed mostly in a sense of you can't go inside people's houses during a pandemic so it's really looking like shifting our direct chef services to finding a kitchen where our chefs can make these meals and then unfortunately it does sort of diminish the personable aspect of it of having a meal created in your home. But still just being able to have a delivery service where black trans people are still being able to receive homecooked meals from other black trans people.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, there were all these reports at the beginning of the pandemic that there was a lot of good financial support for The Okra Project, that people were donating a lot. I personally think that people can never donate enough money so I'm like please, please keep giving. But I'm also curious what your take is on why it has really resonated with people.
(23:55)
Ebony: Well I think the reason it's probably resonated with so many people is that because -- and because honestly the people that donate to The Okra Project, we're not just receiving donations from black trans people; we're receiving donations from pretty much everybody and anybody. I think it's because people understand the mission and the purpose of the organization, the purpose of why people need to have this space and community to know that they are not just supported because it's beyond support. When you feed someone you're not just supporting them. You're literally nourishing them as a person, their soul, and I think everybody can resonate with that. Everyone can resonate with the importance of food. Everyone can resonate with the feeling of loneliness and I think everyone sees some form of how the issue does pertain to them. We've also just started offering so many other programs and services, so like outside of simply our direct chef services, so it could be anything.
Aminatou: Yeah, can you tell me more about those? Like the ways that you're expanding the services.
Ebony: Yeah, so two other programs that we're really focused on right now are our Nina Pop and Tony McDade mental health fund which what that looks like is essentially free therapy for black trans people with a black therapist. And the way that that works is people can donate their sessions. We as The Okra Project have simply donated a set amount of money to pay for these sessions and people can donate their personal sessions. People can donate money to help continue to pay for the sessions. And yeah, it just looks like black trans people being able to have access to free therapy services on the basis of their choosing.
(25:48)
And then our other program is the COVID-19 relief fund which right now that is just us sending funds directly to black trans people during a time of need for specific needs of utilities, rent, medical emergencies, like any sort of need that they would occur during the pandemic and probably are unable to handle on their own due to the fact that people aren't working.
Aminatou: Does the Okra Project have dream new areas of support that you'd like to expand into or services you would like to expand on if financially it was more feasible?
Ebony: I think right now the biggest thing The Okra Project would love if it was financially feasible is to really have a physical space where we could run all of our services out of. Kitchens, a space that people could really call home. Sort of like a base for black trans people to come and gather at, a Mecca of sorts.
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean let's all manifest that for 2021. I love a big challenge.
Ebony: No, yeah.
Aminatou: Let's take a break. You know one of the things that's both been really heartening but also just like very hard is all of this collective momentum that we're seeing surrounding conversations about representation and defunding the police and I'm sure that The Okra Project is definitely having conversation with a lot of these organizers in that these are not new topics for the community. I am just wondering for you what it feels like to see topics that are usually never at the forefront of conversation just really be fueled by so much hope in this moment.
Ebony: I'm definitely happy to see these movements and these moments just take place on such a large scale because I mean we've been crying out for so long, you know, to just be seen. And in the past there have been waves of, you know, Black Lives Matter and police brutality, these aren't new concepts but this year they definitely have taken off in a much more dramatic way than they have before.
(28:30)
But I think it definitely does come with a sense of . . . like the happiness that it is seen, these things come to fruition. There is a sense of sadness because it is recognizing that it's through continued pain, because even now there's still so much more work to be done. So it's like it's through the continued pain and struggle through which we are able to keep making these efforts but you actually still have to go through that pain and you actually still do have to experience that struggle. And I think that is something that's a little difficult to reckon with.
Aminatou: Hmm, that is really resonating with me and I'm really agreeing with that. On one hand it feels good to see momentum and to, you know, even have the tiniest bit of hope that things are going to change but also just knowing how much pain it takes for all of this to come to the fore of conversation.
Ebony: Exactly. Exactly that and I think it's like, you know, there's definitely the hope and resilience that's spread through that. I mean that doesn't mean that the work stops. We continue to push forward and we continue to keep fighting because that's how we continue to move forward but I definitely do think that just the state -- with the state of the world right now it's like seeing the road ahead, definitely sometimes it's like wow, we've got a lot of work to do still.
(30:00)
Aminatou: I mean I hear that and I think that, you know, you are particularly doing a kind of work that 1) is so necessary and also 2) that you're constantly having to remind other people why it's important to do this work and to support this work. And so how do you stay -- how do you just stay hopeful about doing it, like showing up day in and day out and really being disciplined about just being hopeful?
Ebony: I think it really comes from a sense of -- because I think what really helps me stay hopeful about it is remembering the fact that at the core, especially as a black trans person, at the core of my experience with my community when I'm with other black trans people, when I'm sharing spaces and when I'm in that community, I don't ever for a moment even begin to think about the external factors or the circumstances that are happening in our lives. And I think that's something that is -- that can resonate with so many marginalized people. You don't really live and exist marginalized until you're in the space that's marginalizing you, you know? When you're separate and when you're by yourself it almost sort of fades away into the background.
I think the thing that helps me remain hopeful are those moments when I'm with community and when I'm sharing those spaces. It's like I remember this is life I'm living naturally, you know? It's not something that I really have to be disciplined about when I'm just experiencing those moments of genuine support and community. And that's just so important that I just continue to bring that to as many people that don't have that as possible.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, one of the things when I first found out about the project, and I love what you said earlier about it was supposed to be short-term and that's why it has project in the name, I love that, part of what I think made it almost reflexively easy to say "Yes this is so aligned with the core things that I support as a human" was just how specific the mission is, you know? And saying okay, if you want to make a change you actually have to be very specific about the kind of change that you want to make. And I wonder when you think about expanding services or you think about all of the potential of what it is you can do together I wonder how you think about that language, like how we ask for people to show up for us and how specific we have to be in those asks.
(32:45)
Ebony: I think what it really was, and the reason at least, is that when it comes across so specifically and when you're able to truly get to the source and name what it is there's no other conversation that's needed to happen. It doesn't have to get sort of bogged down in the search, because I feel ultimately there is going to be some sort of search to get to what the core of what you're trying to get at is. So when you're able to just name something and just name it for what it is at its core and what its foundation is like The Okra Project, we want to nourish and feed black trans people, when you can name that and you can say that there's no other questions to be asked. What do you want us to do for black trans people? We said it. We told you. You know.
Aminatou: Ah, I'm wondering also if you can talk even just about the name, like choosing Okra specifically. Such a polarizing food even within the black community. I am 1,000 percent pro-okra so I will always show up but for the people who do not know what okra is or why it's significant can you talk about it a little?
Ebony: Okay, so I will actually preface this that I am 1,000 percent team anti-okra. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Goodbye, this interview is over. [Laughs]
(34:05)
Ebony: I am not a fan. No, no, no.
Aminatou: Why are you not a fan? Is it a texture issue? What is it?
Ebony: It is definitely a texture issue for me. I'm not interested. [Laughs] I'm not interested in what okra has to offer on the inside.
Aminatou: [Laughs] This is making me so happy.
Ebony: But the main significance of okra is okra was one of the few crops that were actually able to be brought over during times of slavery. That's why it became such a staple in the south. I mean I think it was okra and rice were two of the things that slaves were able to actually bring with them on the ships and cultivate when they came over to America. [Laughs] And so the significance of it is that not only is it a linchpin for black Americans to their roots in Africa but it was also just significant in the sense that that's what they were literally using to sustain and nourish themselves during probably one of the most perilous times in their experiences and in our overall ancestral experience.
Because all the experiences that we have as black people are shared and ancestral just by default. So it's like we just call to that and pay homage to that in our work now to heal what will still be felt by hundreds of thousands of black people that will be born in the future.
Aminatou: H mm, okra, the most maligned food that we share across the diaspora. [Laughs]
Ebony: It's true. Who knew that it could have this level of significance?
Aminatou: You know, anything that is viscous I think usually elicits that. But it's funny, in Guinea where I'm from we eat okra with rice every single day. Like you can't eat rice if there's no okra in there. It's almost like what, the rice is naked? So I did not know the experience of rice without okra and when I moved to America I also -- I have to say very naively I did not know that people who were not African ate okra. Like it was such a . . . I was like this is, you know, I thought it was just a food we only ate in West Africa. Very childish notion.
(36:20)
But I just love, you know, and like I went to college in Texas and in Texas I think the first time I encountered okra it was like fried obviously. [Laughter] And that both offended me and blew my mind at the same time, you know? I was like what? You can remix the okra? You can do something else with it? There is something about it to me that is also -- obviously food, it's such a shared experience across all of humanity but having a food that has such a significance across the black diaspora and that is so easily recognizable I think is something that is really powerful because our food also does not really get to hold the same kind of prestige that other food does other times. So I appreciate that education as well.
Ebony: I hope that you are hearing the snaps that are coming from within my head because you just said a word with our food not being appreciated as much as other foods are. That is so, so true.
Aminatou: And it's so deeply rooted in just colonial lies, you know? Where I'm like what? You people colonized the whole world for spices and you don't spice anything in your food? This cannot be true. And so I don't know, I think -- it's why I've always just long been so interested in the work that you all do because I think that there's such a dignity to the way that we feed people and the way we bring, you know, food as the tie that binds us together in giving people a voice and giving people a space and creating community and I think that it's just very powerful.
(38:10)
Ebony: Yes, exactly. What you said is exactly the whole entire reason why it's behind our mission because food is the linchpin. You know, it's the reason why we gather. It's the reason why we come together. It's literally the focus of our celebrations. It's the focus of our celebrations but it's also the thing that brings us together when we grieve. Like any single moment when we gather there is food present and the absence of that, not having that, is so, so deeply felt because of that very fact that a lack of food is like having a lack of community or a lack of just basic nourishment of one's mind and soul. So yeah.
Aminatou: Well as you know we are entering into a holiday period which is -- tradition says we have to be grateful and then capitalism says we have to be wasteful. There are just all of these values are at odds with each other. But I would love to hear from you a concrete way that we can support The Okra Project and then also lazy question in general, how people can use their privilege to support trans and black-led organizations. How can we do that this holiday season specifically?
Ebony: Well right now I definitely think that the most important thing that people can really do right now during this holiday season is just do exactly what you said. It's make that effort to even start to want to amplify these voices to begin with. Go out and actually either donate to these organizations, donate to The Okra Project, or donate to any of the other black-led trans organizations that you have awareness of or go out and try to find some awareness of some. For us specifically if you want to help us we are definitely trying to work on a food drive this upcoming season so if you want to just keep an eye out for that and maybe donate food or just resources that could be used during these times that would definitely, definitely be helpful. But I really think that right now, and it's been a main theme of 2020, open your purse. [Laughs] And just give.
(40:25)
Aminatou: I think that's fair. You've got to put your money where your values are. And before we leave what is one thing or something, anything really, for cis people who say that they want to support trans people or they want to support trans organizations? What is one thing you wish they knew or that they realized or that they would just, you know, something that you wish they would just really internalize deeply?
Ebony: Ooh. I'd have to think. What I would love for cis people to internalize and just get it through their heads and let's . . .
Aminatou: One for all.
Ebony: Is that the concept of transness, trans people are not trans because we say we are. We're trans because you say we are. You have determined this and you have labeled our existence in relation to yours. Because we are not like you we are trans. Now that doesn't mean the trans -- that doesn't mean we're not proud to call ourselves trans, let's not get that twisted, but let's understand that the origins of our identity are created because you determined that there was something different about us to the extent that we needed to be delineated from everybody else. Now we're happy in our delineation. We're happy to exist and share our community, you know? But this is not a circumstance that was created or crafted by us. This was all your design, baby, so I just really would love it if we as trans people could just live and exist without also having to deal with you trying to engage with what it even means to be trans. We don't need your voyeurism now that you've also just like -- it's too much.
Aminatou: We do not need your voyeurism. People be trans. I'm like that's it. It happens. Ebony thank you so much for your time. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for your voice. Where can we find your work and where can we donate our money this holiday season?
(42:30)
Ebony: So you can find us on Instagram, Twitter at The Okra Project. You can find us on our website at theokraproject.com. You can find our donation link on any of our social medias as well as our website too.
Aminatou: Wonderful. I am very grateful for you and I hope that you have a wonderful holiday season.
Ebony: Yes, thank you so much and thank you again for having this moment to really sit down and chat. I really appreciate it.
[Interview Ends]
Ann: Ugh, thank you for that.
Aminatou: Ebony's the best. The Okra Project is the best. If you can afford to please support the work that they are doing and we'll see you here next week.
Ann: I'll see you on the Internet and also next week for another conversation about food justice.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.