Wow, No Thank You
4/10/20 - We talk with national treasure Samantha Irby about her hilarious and confident writing about all of her foibles and insecurities. From dealing with money and contracts, to love, her white stepchildren, and her fondness for TV's Judge Mathis, Sam is the antidote to all of our cooped-up sadness right now. Her latest book, Wow, No Thank You is out now.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: WOW, NO THANK YOU
[Ads]
(0:44)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: Doing a podcast for socially-distanced friends everywhere.
Ann: A podcast for all of us very, very far from the people we love in many places around the globe, like truly. I . . .
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh, I was going to say -- no, just kidding. I'm Ann Friedman. Hi. This intro gets more and more relevant with each passing week. That's all I have to say about our intro. Like when have the long-distance besties been more everywhere? Like truly. Truly, truly. We've been doing this podcast for how many years only to see this intro really come into its own under the most difficult and tragic circumstances. That is the truth.
Aminatou: I know. Ann and Aminatou and Gina, original queens of social distancing.
Ann: What's on the agenda today?
Aminatou: Well for the agenda today one very delightful thing: I spoke to friend of the podcast Sam Irby.
Ann: Ahh! I'm so -- sorry, I'm so excited about this. [Laughter] I'm a super fan.
(1:50)
Aminatou: I mean super fan is only scratching the surface about how we feel about Sam Irby in this family. She is iconic. Simply iconic, delightful, an amazing writer, and honestly a wonderful human being. And so like I just feel so honored that she would take the time to speak with us.
Ann: How would you describe Sam's work? Like humorist? Essayist? General like hilarious phenom? I don't know. These are my words but . . .
Aminatou: I mean the mother I never had. The sister I always . . . [Laughs]
Ann: The friend everyone would want.
Aminatou: Right. Sam's body of work truly is delightful because on its face she writes these very humorous essays that are on the human condition I would say. Everything from talking about the gross parts of your body to talking about money and being poor and being depressed and being mentally ill, all of these things. But I think if you hold all of it together it's actually a very generous body of work about how to be a person in the world.
[Theme Song]
(3:30)
Aminatou: Sam has a new book out called Wow, No Thank You that is just as funny as everything else she's written. I would say a little bit more tender. And for someone who writes so much about not having their life together she is an incredibly confident writer and I think it's the perfect recommendation for this moment of pandemic because who doesn't need a laugh and who also doesn't need to be reminded of other problems in life? She writes about lust, her marriage, aging, chronic illness, her what she calls detachment parenting from her two white stepchildren. It is hilarious and so right now.
[Interview Starts]
Aminatou: Hello Sam Irby.
Sam: Amina. This is like the highlight of my life talking to you.
Aminatou: Aww.
Sam: I'm trying to sound very chill because I know we're not allowed to be excited about things anymore but I'm so excited to talk to you. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Listen, I know like you said we're not allowed to be excited about things but this is definitely the highlight of the pandemic for me so I am going to be excited about it.
Sam: God, okay, great. I'm excited too. It's -- how are you doing?
Aminatou: Girl.
Sam: In this.
Aminatou: [Laughs] It feels like every . . . you know in the disaster movies how there's always a scene where everyone is just living their lives normally before the world falls apart? I feel like that's what we're living in right now.
Sam: Yes.
Aminatou: But sustained, you know? It's not like there's a monster that's coming or a meteor's going to hit us or that people are just going to breathe on you or you're going to die like tuberculosis. You know, there's just like this is how it's going on. But I just feel this sense of dread but at the same time Sam can I be honest?
Sam: Yes please.
Aminatou: I am sleeping so well. Like I have never slept this well in my life and I'm like it really took a disaster to make my brain so tired that I just sleep every night now.
(5:50)
Sam: I was just about to say that this feels terrible to say but it's really nice to look outside and not see any people.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Sam: I'm just like oh man, no one's knocking on the door and like no one's shouting outside and I don't have to like be worried about who's outside doing things that could be harmful to me. I mean this is awful but I'm like oh, I can relax a little bit. Like my anxiety has kind of gone down and I don't know what that says about me or my level of mental illness but I've actually been like less anxious lately which is good. I think it's indicative that there's something deeply wrong with me and I'll have to investigate that part later but for now I'm like it's . . . I'm chill. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Listen, I know that we are joking that you have a joke job and that by extension I'm trying to get a joke job which is what like being people who get to write and say how we feel for a living feels like.
Sam: Yes.
Aminatou: But I have to say Sam that your work is really important. You know, it is really important. The way that you write about mental illness and the way that you write about your body and the way you write about money and the way you write about the way the world is I think gives people permission to feel like themselves. And I think that you do it in a way that is funny and in a way that is very self-deprecating but you do it in a way that is very powerful.
(7:50)
Sam: Oh thank you. That is -- thank you. I was about to deflect that compliment but I'm trying to not do that now.
Aminatou: Yes just receive it and bask in the awkwardness of it.
Sam: Doing that.
Aminatou: You know, when we hang up you can mutter in the mirror "I hate myself" like I do every day. [Laughs] Any time anyone says anything nice to me that's what I do. I'm just like ah, I want to die. You know what? We are all growing up here so let's accept the compliments.
Sam: Okay. Accepted, received, believed. Not believed but received. Believed was too far. I couldn't let myself say that. But received and I'm trying to believe it.
Aminatou: That's real. Well how does it feel to have a book out in this weird moment?
Sam: It feels . . . I mean so in general the promotion part of the book thing which you don't think about when you're like getting some jokes off and congratulating yourself for being so clever, you don't think about the getting it into people's hands part. And in general like when it's not I Am Legend times it feels like awkward and feels like it's . . . I'm not a good salesperson. I had a job for like five minutes trying to sell vacuum cleaners once. We'll have to talk about that another time.
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Sam: Essentially on the first day this woman was trying to get me to pitch her the vacuum and I was like I don't know, it sucks up dirt. Do you want it or not? And that was the end of that job because I'm a bad salesperson. So like convincing people to buy my books about like diarrhea and sadness in general is hard but now it feels like especially frivolous.
(10:05)
I think the one good thing is that it's funny and it's not about communicable disease and so I have a leg up. Like if I'd written Contagion or whatever [Laughter] and was out on the like Zoom tour or whatever people are having to do to sell books in this time I'd be petrified, especially if my book didn't have any solutions to the contagion. But now it's . . . it's awkward but it's also like well if you're stuck inside anyway you may as well laugh about like my daily embarrassments. And so far that has been like a pitch that I feel comfortable giving that hopefully is working. But we'll see.
Aminatou: I mean I hear you. People have a lot of time to read right now because you know my pet peeve is people who don't read books.
Sam: I know.
Aminatou: I can't believe I have to share oxygen with those people. It's just -- nothing annoys me. And I was like okay guys, we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for everyone to stay home and read and you know what? Some people are still not going to read.
Sam: No, they are going to watch every terrible . . . the thing at the very end of the Netflix suggestion, the thing that nobody's watching, people will watch that rather than read a book.
(11:45)
Aminatou: [Laughs] That's so real. Well let's talk about your book because I obviously read it in one sitting because it was hilarious and you have not lost your blog voice. A lot of people have lost their blog voices in 2020 and you do not suffer from that illness.
Sam: No. Isn't it weird when people try to get smart and like, you know, sophisticated in their writing? I do not have that problem.
Aminatou: I can't do it. I can only do the thing I do very well which is Instagram captions so when I give you a book it'll be 80,000 Instagram captions. That's what . . .
Sam: That is what I want. I screenshot your stories. I probably have more screenshots of your stories on my phone than I have like pictures of my cats which is . . .
Aminatou: Aww! Well sorry for all the typos. [Laughs] It's like I see them then I don't care to change it. I'm like nobody's paying for a copy editor up in here.
Sam: That's right.
Aminatou: The thing with this book that I was so -- I was so eager to read it because I was like how is she going to top the last book/also you're 100 percent iconic now. And so, you know, it's the kind of thing where I'm like how is she still going to try to be like a regular person? But I'm seeing her up in these Hollywood meetings. She's got that first book money, that first book success, you know? All of this stuff. And I was really just curious about how it was going to work and it worked.
Sam: I'll tell you what, I've been in many Hollywood meetings where they have pretended to love me and it's like a series of first dates in which you're like oh my god, we totally clicked. They really love me for me. And then they call my agent later and are like "Hmm, no thanks." [Laughs]
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Sam: So I've left a lot of meetings being like hmm, they're going to give me a show then gotten the call later where my agent was very nice and like "So, uh, they have some similar projects and they're going to pass." And I'm like ugh, well they knew they had similar projects before I went and sweated all over their seats but okay.
Aminatou: But they wanted to give you a water bottle. They wanted to give you a water bottle with the logo of their company on it so that's why you're in the meeting.
(14:25)
Sam: I take the water every time but I never drink it because I never want to have to pee in one of those places.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Sam: So I always end the day with a tote bag full of HBO waters or whatever that I was too scared to drink in front of another person.
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Sam: So there's zero Hollywood blow-up happening for me and I am still like just stupid enough to constantly get in my own way so like I made some money on my book but I didn't realize how taxes work.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Sam: So hard to be, you know, saddidy or whatever when I'm on a payment plan with the IRS because they caught me and were like "Um, hey sweetie, so cute that you got a laptop and you guys upgraded your car but you didn't give us our part and we will put you in jail."
Aminatou: Donald Trump always gets his money.
Sam: I know.
Aminatou: He always gets his money.
(15:55)
Sam: I know. And the letter, they're very nice. They're less scary than you expect the government to be.
Aminatou: Yeah, the IRS envelope is scarier than what's inside the envelope. I think a lot of people don't realize this.
Sam: Yes.
Aminatou: Also they only talk to you in the mail so that's why you get so much mail from them.
Sam: Yes. The first gotcha bitch letter that I got was certified and the mailman who is so nice did have to beat down the door because he knew I was inside and just ignoring him and I'd come to the door and he's like "Yeah, Sam, so this one looks important." And I was like okay. You know, I was signing for it and I'm like oh, okay. Mm-hmm. The other side of the freelance success life is that you need to be responsible and pay for the roads and schools which I'm happy to do. I just didn't realize it. So it's hard to like feel like I've accomplished anything when I still am getting in so much dumb trouble. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I mean listen, I feel you.
Sam: I keep myself down to earth by never reading any fine print, never knowing any rules before I get into anything, ignoring all the clauses on the contracts. [Laughter]
Aminatou: Your agent is listening to this screaming.
(17:45)
Sam: I know. He knows. I mean he does this thing now where I'll always -- you know how a friend . . . you have to know this, how somebody you know, it's usually never a close friend, but somebody you know will be like "Hey, can you do this thing for me?"
Aminatou: Yes.
Sam: And it's like oh, okay, that's -- yeah, that's easy. And then you . . . then two months later they're like "Hmm, okay, so I need you to do this thing for me but before we do it just throw a little docu-signature on . . . a little docu-sign on this thing then we can get started." And I'm like oh, okay, cool Internet person. Uh-huh. And they're like "I will throw a check for a thousand dollars in the mail to you as soon as you do that." And I'm like great, yeah, give me that thousand dollars. Then I do it and realize I have signed all of my rights away. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right. They're like hi, now I own your entire life's body of work. Your children belong to me.
Sam: Yes.
Aminatou: Everything. Yeah, you can't -- you've got to read the contracts.
Sam: So now my agent is like I don't care what it is or how small it seems send me the contract or I will murder you. And I'm like okay. Okay. So at least I've stopped doing shit like that but all of that stuff keeps me extremely humble. [Laughter]
Aminatou: I love this. Well what are you not humble about though? Because I see that your face screen situation looks very luxurious.
Sam: Well you know what I do is I look at people's profiles, like their Into the Gloss or whatever, and I'm like oh, she uses that? Or oh, this Instagram person uses this? And then I buy the stuff that they have and put it all on my face. [Laughter]
(19:50)
Aminatou: Your face is very smooth though so it's working.
Sam: Listen, I'll send you a list. It's very short because I'm lazy so I don't do a whole lot but it works for me. A little retinal and moisturizer and like . . .
Aminatou: Big guns. The big guns.
Sam: Yes. I just turned 40 and you know all of those articles that are like 40? This is what you need to do for your face now. And every single one of them is put some retinal on it.
Aminatou: But is that true for us? And by us I mean melanated . . .
Sam: No. For blacks no. We don't . . . I mean we black and brown-skinned, all I do is eat pizza and drink Diet Sprite and my skin is fine. But I do enjoy the ritual of putting things on my face. I do like in a very limited way to feel like I have cared for myself. And face care is the easiest way for me.
Aminatou: That's fair. I'm the only one in my family that has bad skin. Everyone else is just smearing pizza oil on their face and they look amazing. Meanwhile I have an entire routine and I'm struggling and my grandma used to always say it's because I had all those white friends. [Laughter] My grandma was savage. She was always like "Yeah, it's all those white friends you have." And I'm like that is not a real diagnosis of anything that's going on in my life. I'm also the only person in my family that gets a sunburn and my grandma said that it's also that. So it's very . . . it always makes me laugh.
(21:30)
Sam: Oh my god. So I have a lot of white friends too but my skin has been pretty good but okay, here's my consolation: the rest of my body is decaying even though I'm still alive so like good skin is the one thing -- the one like way in which this cruel god has spared me is to be like okay, your joints are going to buckle on you but your face will glow. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Listen, it's working. I'll take anything I can get at this point because who knows when we are ever going to leave the house again?
Sam: I mean, you know, in 18 months when we are freed from our prisons we will all be like infants. Just like blobby, soft with zero hyper pigmentation.
Aminatou: Amen. Amen. In 18 months when we can leave the house. [Laughter] You write in this book a lot about raising your stepchildren. Like I love it. I love just everything you write about your blended family because there's so many ways to be a family and I think the honesty with which you talk about it, it makes me feel hopeful about having a family instead of all these like perfect, weird, fake family things.
Sam: Yeah.
Aminatou: And so I just wonder how do you talk to the kids about the writing that you're doing? Do they read your writing? Do you show them stuff in the book that you're saying or are you literally like you terrorists are going to get what you get?
Sam: [Laughs] I'm pretty much like you terrorists are going to get what you get. They -- so they would love to be featured like by name and have every single one of their antics detailed in my books.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Sam: I mean truly they would -- if they could sign permission slips they would immediately. But I am just like okay, well one they're not mine and they're not mine to destroy right? Like I know that parents think they can ruin their children and I guess if you give birth to them you can. But these ones I cannot. I can't imagine ten years from now one of them turning to me and being like "Um, listen bitch, that thing you put in your book about me destroyed my childhood." I don't want that kind of beef. I don't want to be apologizing for the rest of my life so I try to not say anything that would embarrass them in the future.
(24:30)
So they know that I write kind of around them but I don't . . . I mean they're so -- I am obsessed with sibling relationships. And these dudes are just punching each other in the face all the time and like . . .
Aminatou: Oh gosh. [Laughs]
Sam: I mean there was a moment -- this was a couple years ago where the little one got a megaphone and was just walking around the house saying terrible things about her brother and she was like "He's a butt and he smells like diarrhea." And I was like crying laughing. And I would love to write about that but then I'm like, you know, this bitch is going to be 22 and being like "Um, Sam? You really made me look terrible." So I don't want . . . [Laughter] I don't want that.
Aminatou: Protecting the innocent, I love it.
Sam: I'm trying even though they would love it. But I do -- my wife's name is Kirsten and I do let her read things before I submit them and she has never . . . I mean even when I slander her she has never said "Oh, you can't write that" or, you know, that's too much. I think I have a pretty good handle on what not to say about someone I'd like to have a relationship with in the future. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You're like thanks Amina, I know how to stay married. Thanks.
(26:10)
Sam: Yeah. My wedding advice book which is coming out will basically just be called Try Not to Embarrass This Bitch If You Want Her to Talk to You in Ten Years.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh, please, I want to read it.
Sam: I will write it. You know what's nuts though is like I have mostly shielded them from like my persona and my -- like, you know, they're not tweeting or whatever but the boy just got Instagram and started following me [Laughs] and like I didn't really think -- he's 14 but I didn't really think about what that meant until, I don't know, I posted some like disgusting thing in my story and he messaged me and was like "Ha, ha, that's funny."
Aminatou: Oh no.
Sam: And I'm like oh no! [Laughs] No! No! I will say though that despite like how humiliating it is when, you know, your stepchildren find out you're a disgusting pig he was incredibly impressed that I was verified and had a lot of followers which I wish I wasn't the kind of person who needed young people to think I'm cool but I am and I do. And so when he came to me and was like -- they call me Sammy. He was like "Whoa, Sammy, you have a lot of followers. That's dope."
Aminatou: He was like outside of this house you have clout. [Laughter]
(28:10)
Sam: Yeah. He was like in here we don't give a fuck about what you're talking about but on the Internet people pay attention to you? That's crazy. And I did like levitate a few inches off the ground because a teenage person thought I was cool. And some of his friends follow me and again I'm waiting for the PTA meeting in which like someone pulls my wife aside and is like "Listen, you need to tell that bitch you live with to block all of our kids." But until then it did make me feel very cool. I was like oh, I didn't feel like I accomplished anything until these teens told me they were impressed by something I had done and then I felt pretty good.
Aminatou: I have a 12-year-old, almost 13-year-old in my life that recently I was walking down the street and I ran into her and her friends and she introduced me to her friends as "This is my friend Amina."
Sam: Whew.
Aminatou: And I lost it. I was just like pretending to be cool but the minute she did it she shot me a look that was like if you fucking embarrass me you're dead to me. And so I literally had the look of someone who was having diarrhea on the street at the same time because I was trying to process the enormity of her introducing me to people as my friend Amina and also fully understanding that if I didn't act cool in that moment my life was over.
(29:50)
Sam: Yeah. When the children have friends over, which it's a new thing for me to be living . . . because I grew up with just my mom for the most part in tiny apartments like the kinds of places you would not want to bring friends over to. So this whole thing is new to me, like not only living in a house but living in a house that children run in and out of and their friends run in and out of all the time. There's always some smelly, oily-haired mopey teenage boy walking around who doesn't actually live here and I'm like who -- what? Who? Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, I guess you belong here.
But like when those kids are here and they're like "Oh, Sam, uh, saw that -- saw your book in the bookstore. It was pretty cool." Oh my god! But I have to act like I don't care right? I just have to be like yeah, don't drink all the Cokes. But in my heart it's exploding with . . . [Laughs]
Aminatou: You're like dawg, I saw my book in the bookstore too!
Sam: I mean it's like insane how young people -- I go right back to feeling like a sophomore in high school. And they don't know, like they can't . . . obviously they can't read my mind but I really am like, you know, when all the cool kids are over here and they're like . . . they're like "Sam, what are you listening to? That sounds cool." I'm like "Nothing. You've never heard of it." But then inside I'm like oh my god, them children think I listen to cool music. [Laughter] It's like the best worst grow-up but also I'm like this is extremely validating for me. Thank you seventh grader for making me feel good about myself.
(32:00)
Aminatou: The only people in my life whose opinions matter haven't taken the PSATs yet. Like that's squarely the zone in which I'm like these are the people I need to think I'm awesome. Everyone else I'm like I don't care.
Sam: Yes, 100 percent. And I have the luxury of like not being their mother so I don't have to like yell at them or make sure they choose the right college courses. You know what I mean? I don't have to get involved in any of those decisions. I don't have to make sure their braces are right or they get vaccinated which is a huge relief because what do I know about any of that? But I do get to like make sure I know all of the cool stuff which is like that would make me pathetic if I was their mom, if I was like "Hey, what are you guys listening to? Oh, Brock Hampton? Huh, cool." Like if I was their mom they'd be like get out of here. But because, well, 1) I'm black and 2) I didn't give birth to them they're like oh, you're interested in what we're interested in? Well now you're cool too. It's really . . . you know people say you turn 40 and you stop caring about things but I turned 40 and not only do I still care but I also care about the opinions of people who don't have money and truly can't do -- they are dependent on me to eat but their opinions of what I choose to do can make or break my day. It's disgusting but also incredible. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I love this for you.
[Ads]
(36:50)
Aminatou: You know one of the things that always jumps out at me so much in your writing is how the subtext is almost always about an insecurity that you have. But I find that you are easily the most confident person or confident-seeming person because of the things that you choose to talk about and the ways that you say them and also you're just a bad-ass. How are you reconciling both of those things?
Sam: I think the choice to -- or I don't even know if it's a choice as much as it's a compulsion to like be honest about things. I truly don't know where that comes from other than this place of like if I lay myself like -- if I lay my feelings nakedly before you please love me, you know? I think that's like where the openness comes from. And also because it -- like I truly am just trying to make friends with people I've never met, right? I want you to read my book and feel like we're friends because I'm needy and I obviously wasn't loved enough or whatever Freudian reason I have for being so desperate for love from people. I'm like well I will give myself to you and hopefully you'll love it and hopefully you'll recognize something of yourself in it because that happens a lot too when people are like oh man, I didn't -- thanks for talking about being anxious because I feel that way too and I often feel alone in it. So I'm just trying to be like you're not the only one who feels alone.
So that's I think where I don't know if it's confidence as much as it's just like here's everything I am. Let's laugh. Hopefully you feel some of it too. Hopefully it makes you feel less alone. I'm like -- and reconciling that with being . . . I mean for me I think being insecure and open are just two sides of the same coin. Like it feels like it comes all from the same place. Almost like a -- like the insecurity's like a poison I've just got to get out of me and hopefully by getting it out of me other people see it, recognize it, relate to it and like embrace me for it. Did that sound dumb? See, I'm insecure.
Aminatou: It doesn't sound dumb. I am literally tearing up over here. Not only does it not sound dumb it is really lovely and I just -- you know, I'm just so happy that I get to be alive at the same time as you because . . .
Sam: Now you're going to make me cry.
(40:00)
Aminatou: Where would we be without all of your truths, you know? You really are the like anti-guru guru. I'm like I'll come to your church. [Laughter] I'll come to your church. I'll do all the things that you say. And I think that you . . . I thin it's just really generous the way you share your life and your stories. I know to you it seems very unassuming but I think that the result of it is really, you know, like a real deep feeling of belonging and a feeling of just like letting go of shame.
Sam: Yeah. Yes.
Aminatou: I think your body of work does that where you just go like shame is not productive and let's not be ashamed about dumb things. Like just put it all on the table.
Sam: Yeah. That hiding things, I mean . . . and this is maybe the real -- or the impulse to keep doing it is like we live in a way that you can construct . . . you can project. You can construct who you want to be then project that to people and very few people outside of your real life have to know what you really are and that's so . . . and I understand why people do it. Listen, if I could get away with it I might try it but unfortunately I'm going to meet people and be sad in front of them and sweat and stammer in front of them. So it's like what's the point about lying unless I never leave my house? [Laughs]
But I understand the allure of sort of creating a fake person who masks who you really are but like for me I just think well so we have those people and we can be fooled by those people and feel bad because you're comparing yourself to a projection that someone else, you know, is creating online. But also to sort of counterbalance that I can be like listen, you know, my -- the circumference of my ankles is like 40 inches. It's not true but it's . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(42:15)
Sam: It's close. You know what I mean? And some swollen-ankle bitch is going to be like okay, great. Because one of my favorite things about Instagram, I love to follow people with beautiful spaces and people who are organized, oh my god, and people who do, what is it called, flat lay or lay flat or whatever where they lay out their shit. I'm like oh that's beautiful. How did she know to buy all those hair products? Do all those hair products work? They look so good together. You know, I love to look at all that but I feel I have to temper it with like jokes and memes, number one. And then like people who are honest about, you know, I . . . this is the money that I have or the money I don't have. This is the actual body I live in. This is the thing -- these are the things that make me sad. I'm like if I can serve to be that person for other people, you know, people who are like okay, like they paid her $70,000 for a book. The government got half. Her agent took 15 percent and she fucked up the rest of it. [Laughter] Like that's real. You know, very few people talk about stuff like that and it can only -- my failings can only like serve to make other people feel less like failures. If I can do that then that's what I want to do. Nobody needs me talking about how life is perfect because mine is not. [Laughs]
(44:10)
Aminatou: Oprah is shaking. Oprah is shaking and crying right now. You're coming for her crown.
Sam: Well I would love for her to even breathe on one of my books while telling people to buy it. [Laughs] With that I can pay the IRS back.
Aminatou: Oprah's biggest failure honestly is not choosing one of your books as her book club pick because her book club picks recently have been problematic to say the least.
Sam: Yeah, I'm like come on Oprah. I mean I guess I would have to . . . I read she works with the publisher whose books she chooses. I'm like I really like my publisher, I don't want to leave them, but I am like uh, could y'all offer Oprah a deal and thus get me a deal? [Laughs] I will write another book if Oprah will sell it.
Aminatou: Oprah needs to just stop reading books by white ladies who want to write about Mexico, you know what I'm saying?
Sam: Oh, that whole thing. I was like there wasn't an intern somewhere who was like okay y'all, this ain't the one? [Laughs]
Aminatou: No. If there's no black or brown interns there's no one who will see it, you know what I'm saying?
Sam: For real. I totally do.
Aminatou: The other thing that Oprah needs to be reading honestly for her own mental health is your newsletter because we are right now on . . . so the newsletter content has been all about Judge Mathis recently. Headline who's on Judge Mathis today? Yesterday's that I read was number 71. I have read all 71 editions of this and it has really replaced watching Judge Mathis for me because this is still much better than actually watching the show.
(46:08)
Sam: Now this is my actual heart song. This is my crowning achievement is this newsletter.
Aminatou: Listen, I pay for three newsletters and this is one of them. Every time I get the email from Substack where they're like we have taken your money away I was like give that woman everything she needs.
Sam: [Laughs] That is the highest honor. Can I -- so I'm a Judge Mathis fan from way back. I have been to probably like six or seven tapings of the show.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Sam: I won a t-shirt -- he didn't sign it which really would've been . . . for me I won a t-shirt because between cases Doyle the bailiff, your listeners are about to be like shut the fuck up, but anyway . . .
Aminatou: No, our listeners don't watch Judge Mathis. Doyle the bailiff is such a bailiff hottie first of all.
Sam: Oh my god, he's so tall and he's like . . .
Aminatou: So tall.
Sam: Ugh, I mean he loves smoking weed. He's truly the best. But between cases he stays in the fake courtroom and entertains the crowd and they do like a joke telling contest.
Aminatou: No.
Sam: It's so great. Also the audience, if you go on the right day -- like they get all kinds of audiences but three times when I went there were I mean basically like all black church ladies. I'm talking like Easter suited down to the ground, the hats, the wigs, the makeup on point, and they're all -- there are others, always at least one of them that's like "Hey Greg," like trying to get his eye from the gallery. And I'm like Sylvia you need to stop. He has a wife! There's a Mrs. Mathis.
(48:15)
So watching that show for years I've recorded it always. I just like tweeted and was like "Uh, would anybody read a recap if I wrote recaps of Judge Mathis?" And like, you know, all it takes for me is one person to say yes. [Laughs] And if you -- like a child, you know, if you clap I will do whatever the thing is you want me to do.
So I just did it as a joke and then people kept subscribing and I was like okay. This is a thing. And it's like easy for me to riff. I mean, you know, coming up with things organically to talk or write about is sometimes a challenge. Especially because what am I going to analyze the news? What do I have to say about the state of things? But having a television show that comes on every single day it's like comedy gold. I just insert like a couple of my own anecdotes but there's just enough hilarity on the screen and it just . . . it took off. I cannot believe I have written 71 of these things. [Laughs]
(49:45)
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. I can believe it. I've enjoyed every single one of them and I hope you never stop because it's the best quarantine content.
Sam: Okay, let me tell you a secret that's not a secret anymore because I'm about to tell you and I don't know if it's going to happen but I need everyone to light a candle. So my sister-in-law works at the law school Greg went to.
Aminatou: Greg, first name basis. Greg Mathis. [Laughs]
Sam: Gregory. Gregory Ellis Mathis. And she's like we're going to give him an award and would you come interview him for it? And I was like if you do that I will cancel everything in my life to come -- to be wherever that is happening and interview him. That's like my new dream now to interview him. So universe do your thing. Let us out of quarantine so I can talk to Greg Mathis.
Aminatou: I would risk coronavirus to see that. I have not left the house in 12 days. So . . .
Sam: [Laughs] Yeah, how great would that be? First of all . . .
Aminatou: For all of us. For him, for you, for me.
Sam: Imagine me trying to explain to him -- like somebody asked me if I thought he knew that it existed and I was like I don't think that . . . I feel like Greg doesn't really pay close attention to the bowels of the Internet in which I reside. But there's got to be a production assistant. Chicago is the smallest big city there is. There has to be someone who knows that I'm doing this who works for him so I really feel like it's only a matter of time before . . .
(51:45)
Aminatou: I guarantee you he knows or someone that knows him very well knows because people be knowing. People be knowing things.
Sam: We're going to make this happen. I don't know how to pitch things but I'm like if the law school award doesn't work I will . . . I mean I know people at Time Magazine. I will convince someone legit to let me . . .
Aminatou: Person of the year? [Laughter] Person of the year Judge Mathis written by Samantha Irby.
Sam: From your lips to God's ears that's going to happen. He would have to really do something to be person of the year but a feature in a regular -- in an off week? I feel like we could do that. I feel like I could make that happen.
Aminatou: I'm going to light my candle right now because you've finally given me something to look forward to for the end of the world. I'm like this is all -- you know, I'm like God, please don't take us today. I still haven't seen Sam Irby give Greg Mathis an award. [Laughter]
Sam: I know. I mean as long as we're dreaming I would also really love to like sit in the chair and like bang the gavel one time but I feel like that's . . . that's asking for too, too, too much.
Aminatou: No, I want all of those things and so much more for you.
Sam: Thank you.
Aminatou: I also want everyone who listens to our show to buy and read your book Wow, No Thank You.
Sam: Yes please.
Aminatou: Because it is really like . . . it is really funny. It is really funny and it is very tender and it's so necessary. It's such a right now kind of book.
Sam: Aww, thank you. You're the best.
Aminatou: You're the best Sam.
Sam: I can't believe -- I mean I would talk to you for like five hours. I can't believe . . . I can't believe this is our first time.
(53:45)
Aminatou: I know. You know, maybe someone will give us a judge show. It'll be like Judge Amina and Judge Sam and we only adjudicate like petty crime. It has to be like petty personal crime. So you didn't invite your mother-in-law to meet your new baby. We're like we're going to bang the gavel on that. [Laughs] You know, you didn't wash your roommate's dishes. These are the kinds of things I'm trying to get into.
Sam: Yeah, no damages over like $200.
Aminatou: Yeah. $150 even. Only damages to your honor, you know what I mean? This is what I'm trying to do.
Sam: Okay. I am going to write the pitch and then I'll send it to you to read.
Aminatou: I'll drop a contract and make sure we don't sell our life rights. [Laughter]
Sam: Oh my god I can't wait. They've got to cure corona just for this to happen. Come on.
Aminatou: Listen . . .
Sam: Come on CDC.
Aminatou: We cannot live like this. Come on Dr. Fauci. Come on. Do the right thing.
Sam: Please Dr. Fauci. Please. Let us have our judge show.
Aminatou: It's so wild. Well Sam I hope you have a great rest of quarantine.
Sam: you too.
Aminatou: Thank you for joining us today. You are the loveliest human. Thank you.
Sam: Oh, thank you for having me. This was amazing.
[Interview Ends]
Ann: Oh, what a treat, Sam. Like truly a national treasure. National treasure.
Aminatou: I love Sam Irby. Please buy her books, all of them, and if you do not subscribe to her newsletter you are missing out on premium content so please give that woman all of your money and attention. I will see you on the Internet boo-boo.
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.