Know Her Name
12/20/19 - Survivors are speaking out and we’re listening. We talk with Chanel Miller, whose victim impact statement echoed around the internet as the anonymous Emily Doe at Brock Turner's trial. In her new book, Know My Name, Chanel tells her side of her story, which goes far beyond one awful night and a long trial.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Know My Name by Chanel Miller
Victim Impact Statement submitted by Chanel Miller, know in trial documents as Emily Doe
Chanel Miller reads the victim impact statement in her own voice, under her own name
TRANSCRIPT: KNOW HER NAME
[Ads]
(1:04)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda survivors speak out and we are listening. We hear from Chanel Miller who first anonymously and now in her new book Know My Name is sharing her side of the story from campus sexual assault to going through a trial to hold the perpetrator to account to her life now as she has become a public advocate for these issues. Honestly she's a shero and we are honored to have her on CYG.
[Theme Song]
(2:05)
Ann: Many of us became aware of Chanel Miller's gifts as a writer before we learned her name. After she was assaulted at Stanford the perpetrator Brock Turner stood trial and at its conclusion Chanel who had remained anonymous throughout read a victim impact statement to the court that echoed around the Internet. Now that she has shared her identity publicly and written a book under her own name she has also recorded herself reading that statement and here's an excerpt.
[Clip Starts]
Chanel: Instead of taking time to heal I was taking time to recall the night in excruciating detail in order to prepare for the attorney's questions that would be invasive, aggressive, and designed to steer me off-course. To contradict myself, my sister, phrased in ways to manipulate my answers. Instead of his attorney saying "Did you notice any abrasions?" he said "You didn't notice any abrasions, right?" This was a game of strategy as if I could be tricked out of my own worth. The sexual assault had been so clear but instead here I was at the trial answering questions like "How old are you? How much do you weigh? What did you eat that day? What did you have for dinner? Who made dinner? Did you drink with dinner? No? Not even water? When did you drink? How much did you drink? What container did you drink out of? Who gave you the drink? How much do you usually drink? Who dropped you off at this party? At what time? But where exactly? What were you wearing? Why were you going to this party? What'd you do when you got there? Are you sure you did that? Well what time did you do that? What does this text mean? Who are you texting? When did you urinate? Where did you urinate? With whom did you urinate outside? Was your phone on silent when your sister called? Do you remember silencing it? Really? Because on page 53 I'd like to point out that you said it was set to ring. Did you drink in college? You said you were a party animal. How many times did you black out? Did you party at frats? Are you serious with your boyfriend? Are you sexually active with him? When did you start dating? Would you ever cheat? You have a history of cheating? What do you mean when you said you wanted to reward him? Do you remember what time you woke up? Were you wearing your cardigan? What color was your cardigan? Do you remember any more from that night? No? Okay. Well we'll let Brock fill it in."
(4:42)
I was pummeled with narrow, pointed questions that dissected my personal life, love life, past life, family life, inane questions accumulating trivial details to try and find an excuse for this guy who had me half-naked before even bothering to ask for my name. After a physical assault I was assaulted with questions designed to attack me to say "See? Her facts don't line up. She's out of her mind. She's practically an alcoholic. She probably wanted to hook up. He's like an athlete, right? They were both drunk. Whatever. The hospital stuff she remembers is after the fact. Why take it into account? Brock has a lot at stake so he's having a really hard time right now."
And finally to girls everywhere I am with you. On nights when you feel alone I am with you. When people doubt you or dismiss you I am with you. I fought every day for you so never stop fighting. I believe you.
As the author Anne Lamott once wrote lighthouses don't go running all over an island looking for boats to save; they just stand there shining. Although I can't save every boat I hope that by speaking today you've absorbed a small amount of light, a small knowing that you can't be silenced. A small satisfaction that justice was served. A small assurance that we're getting somewhere and a big, big knowing that you are important unquestionably. You are untouchable. You are beautiful. You are to be valued, respected undeniably every minute of every day. You are powerful and nobody can take that away from you. To girls everywhere I am with you.
[Clip Ends]
Ann: And now here's Aminatou talking to Chanel about that time in her life and about the years since which she's written about in her new book Know My Name.
[Interview Starts]
(6:50)
Chanel: My name is Chanel Miller and I'm the author of Know My Name.
Aminatou: Hi Chanel! Thank you so much for coming on Call Your Girlfriend today.
Chanel: Hello Amina. Thank you so much for having me.
Aminatou: It really means a lot that you are here. I really, really, really, really, really enjoyed reading your memoir. I thought it was such a -- both like a beautiful and a powerful piece of writing so thank you.
Chanel: Thank you.
Aminatou: Yeah, where do we even start? I guess can you walk me through the process of deciding to write this book?
Chanel: Oh yeah. I mean writing is something that I've always wanted to do, no question, from a very young age so I was blissed out by the opportunity. At the same time I was really nervous to immerse myself back inside the case again and I think in western culture especially people pride others for moving on and I felt like I was supposed to be moving on and focusing on different things but I realized the best thing for me was actually to go backwards and to revisit my past and spend a lot of time there and to make sense of it so that I could fully move on. So a lot of writing was accepting that I would be backtracking a lot and being okay with that and realizing that that's progress.
(8:25)
Aminatou: You know, when I watched that 60 Minutes interview that you did it was powerful for a lot of reasons for me. But I think that the two things that struck me the most were thinking like oh, of course she's a writer.
Chanel: [Laughs]
Aminatou: We all heard that beautiful letter that you wrote to the judge and I'm like I cannot believe it had not occurred to me that you were a writer. And I think that the other thing too that really kind of knocked me on my ass is seeing your presentation and being like oh, this person is white and Asian-American you know?
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: I don't know, it surprised me that I was surprised and it surprised me that I was feeling the feelings I was feeling. And, you know, I think that so much of that for me was also just like in my head, like who is Emily Doe, you know?
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: And Emily Doe is a white woman for many constructed reasons that are both fair and unfair.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: And I think even just having you on your own terms present who you were was something that was really -- it was a really powerful experience for me. And so I wonder how that felt for you.
Chanel: Yeah. I think, you know, looking through court documents and seeing the form I believe the probation officer had filled out, seeing that she had checked that the victim's ethnicity was white without even bothering to ask me or even wondering that it could be different or seeing my last name Miller and assuming that I'm only white, it just spoke to the fact that she wasn't taking the time to understand or to truly know the person who was inside this case.
(10:22)
So I did feel like it was important to be visible. You know, I struggled a lot with the decision to come forward. On one hand I had achieved privacy and safety and that's what we're trained to want. You know, it's sort of like any victim is lucky to have her identity preserved. At the same time I thought that's not enough. What I really want is to be able to be fully seen and still accepted and to still feel proud of myself and safe.
We should be able to be visible and safe. We shouldn't have to conceal everything about ourselves just to move on in life. So yeah, I wanted to be seen and I wanted people to know that I'm multifaceted, that I'm much more than people may have even been able to imagine at the time.
Aminatou: Yeah, I mean you write in the book that growing up Asian-American made you used to being unseen, to never fully being known.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: It did not feel possible that I could be the protagonist. And I think you are really touching on something that is both very painful and also very real.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: This idea that for Asian-American women that intersection of racism and sexism is -- you know, it's something that is shared by probably a lot of people of color but it's also very unique to your own personal experience.
(11:55)
Chanel: Right, totally. I think, you know, for people of color it's much more common to be dismissed and for others to assume that we won't make a fuss, that we won't have the power or resources to push back or to make others care. I felt throughout the process that I was being underestimated, that I was being perceived as someone that was soft-spoken who wouldn't put up a fight. And maybe in the end that served me. They didn't know what I was capable of. But of course we are loud and we will not go down quietly. I'm really tired of others thinking that just because I'm quiet or because I cry it means I'm soft or a pushover. That's not the case. I think we have a fierceness and we will use it when necessary even if we're not employing it all the time.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, and when I was doing research to speak to you I found out a lot of stuff that was very surprising that I didn't know either. In 2015 the Asian-Pacific Institute on Gender-Based Violence found that somewhere between 21 and 55 percent of Asian-American women experience physical and sexual violence from their intimate partners and also that is the demographic that is the least-likely to report rape or any kind of form of sexual violence, like less-so than other races. And so just thinking about how it's like there are structural reasons that we experience the things that we experience but those things also have very personal ramifications. And so when I think about you using your voice in the background of this is what the system says is supposed to happen I think that it reverberates that much louder.
(13:52)
Chanel: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think my mom -- there's even stereotypes about Asian moms being dominated and strict and maybe small-minded. My mom has always been extremely outspoken. You know, she is not afraid of confronting greater forces and I learned a lot from her. I learned not to tolerate being mistreated and I also learned it's okay to be loud, you know? That I'm aloud to do that. And I think it's really important for all of us to know.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean another thing that you write about in the book is in your anonymity when you were Emily Doe you created this what you call the empty space for healing which is essentially a place for survivors to step into, speak aloud their heaviest truth, to revisit the untouched parts of their past. And then you say like how do you come after me when it is all of us, you know?
Chanel: Yes.
Aminatou: I would love for you to unpack that sentiment.
Chanel: Yeah. Well I remember while I was going through court proceedings the detective was always reminding me don't take this personally. And I was always like "What are you talking about? The attacks are so personal." Everything is extremely invasive. The attacks are built to disassemble my character and me specifically. How could I not take this personally? And I was slow to realize that no matter who would've been assaulted, that would've gone after her too for her own set of reasons. That's what the detective meant. So yes, the attacks were customized to me once I was in the testimony stand but whoever Brock would've assaulted that night would've also been attacked personally. They would've found reasons to go after her.
(15:55)
So my whole thing is even if it feels like it's you who's doing everything wrong or you're full of flaws and insecurities and you feel rotten or deserving, you know, they find out details about you and capitalize on them when really it doesn't matter what your ethnicity is. It doesn't matter what your sexual history is. It doesn't matter who you are or where you've come from. This was never supposed to happen to you. And even though they will customize the attacks to make it extremely painful for you and you may turn inwards and begin blaming yourself know that that happens to each victim because that's what society does. But it was never because of who you are.
Aminatou: There is a part in the book where you say like "I'm not Brock Turner's victim. I'm not his anything. I don't belong to him. I'm also half-Chinese." You say your Chinese name which I would love for you to say and you say that it translates to Little Summer.
Chanel: Yeah. My Chinese name is Zhang Xiao Xia and I was Little Summer because I was born in June.
Aminatou: That's beautiful.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: I don't know, I just like this -- that part was very arresting to me because I think it is a big choice and a big sacrifice to tell your story and to choose to be re-traumatized in essence because like you said at the beginning of the hour you have to walk through that again you know?
Chanel: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: And there are places that are really painful. But I think that what I was really struck by is that you are choosing to be very specific about who you are and I imagine there's a lot of healing in that.
(17:48)
Chanel: Absolutely. It's really humanizing to be able to have this space in a book to tell you who I am. It also helps to reinforce the idea that the assault is not my core identity. You know, I have so many defining moments beyond this night. I have so many formative memories, so many things that have shaped who I am today that go beyond this singular incident and I think the fear is that this act that someone else committed on us becomes our identity and that's so sad and so small. For it to overshadow everything else you are in life, you know? Everything else you've been through and worked toward. All your wishes and talents, all of that to be erased and replaced by an external violent act that was done to you. You know, that's terrible. And being able to round myself out to show you all the things that I am, I mean I also think it's . . .
In court you are expected to be obedient, to keep a level of temperament, to not get too angry. You're not allowed to express self-doubt. You have to speak your answers on the testimony stand with certainty and that to me is not realistic. It's not human. So in the book I can tell you that I have long periods of depression. I doubt myself all the time. You know, there are times I'm mentally unstable. I question myself. I have insecurities. Sometimes I have explosive rage. But none of that makes me lesser. It does not make me deficient or reckless or irresponsible. At the end of the day I can show you that I'm all of those things but I'm also strong. I'm very proud of who I am and that is all humanizing.
[Ads]
(23:04)
Aminatou: You write also about the fact that even though you are the one that's been assaulted you still felt like you're a criminal just because of the way the entire court system is set.
Chanel: Totally.
Aminatou: And that drives me up the wall for you but again that is the experience of so many people. You're the aggrieved party and somehow you are the one that's made to feel like your behavior is criminal.
Chanel: Yeah. And you're always worried about doing something wrong. Like are you being too emotional? Are you not being emotional enough? Can they even tell that you're affected? You're always being evaluated. And it's not enough to just be as you are or to express what you need to express. The pressure and stress is so intense when you're in there, I also think the courtroom and the waiting room which I call the victim closet in the book, there is no art on the walls. There is no music playing. There are no plants growing. There's no color. Everyone's dressed in beige tones. It's very serious. There's no room for humor. It's not a place where any human can thrive. And I think, you know, on a subconscious level we're always taking cues from our environment. And I think when I was in the courtroom for hours at a time, you know, I look around and think I must've done something wrong if I'm being put in an environment like this. It felt punishing. I felt like something was wrong with me to have ended up in a place like this. Clearly I had failed somewhere along the way and now my punishment is being in this windowless place being cross-examined with hundreds of questions.
Aminatou: Yeah, right? And you also just talk so much about how obviously Brock Turner got this incredibly lenient sentence. That's like such a mild way of putting it. And, you know, the infuriating fact of the matter is that all of the evidence was presented right? It's like the judge hears everything that's happened to you and this person decides he's going to take matters into his own hands because this person comes from a good family or is athletic or whatever.
Chanel: Right.
Aminatou: Which is so -- I'm like this is again how justice is miscarried towards people who deserve it the most right?
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: And so just thinking about that's the background in which you wrote that really powerful statement. And I just wonder like in that moment releasing that statement and also hearing what the judge has decided, like how did that make you feel?
(26:00)
Chanel: Yeah. I think it was completely unexpected. It didn't even occur to me that it could be less than a year because, you know, I had spent a year-and-a-half just to be given the opportunity to read my statement. So it was crazy to me that his sentence would be a fraction of the time I had spent inside the case, you know, imprisoned in my own way. Not being able to socialize or go to work. You know, being trapped in this system that was not allowing me to move on.
Three months is not enough of a punishment for the assault itself but it also fails to calculate the entire aftermath of the assault which I often think we overlook. All of the psychological and emotional damage that is accumulating for the victim over time, you know, that is preventable. He chose to put me through testimony again and again and there's a cost to that and there needs to be punishment for that.
I think they treated it like, you know, he had slipped up for one night and that shouldn't determine the rest of his life. It was just like he had sort of lost his way and needed guidance to get back and victims don't have the choice to go back. We -- our entire life trajectory has been altered. Trauma is something you live with for the rest of your life. Often anger is too and a lot of healing is not erasing that but learning to accept it and live with it.
(27:50)
So I live with this narrative. I have figured out how to control it and, you know, present it through my own eyes but it will always be with me. I don't get to just be gently returned back to my day-to-day life like they were attempting to do with him.
Aminatou: Right, like the idea that a young man gets to learn about himself and forgiveness and everything but the cost of that comes at a woman's life and there's no compassion for you right? But there's so much for him.
Chanel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think a lot of that -- it's difficult because I say in the statement too so much of the damage is internal and the burden is on us to sort of show you what the cost is and what we're going through and how it's hurting us. Otherwise it's not deemed as real or it's not calculated. We're the ones who are always forced to communicate hey, this is really hurting. This is affecting all aspects of my life and if we don't say it no one's going to address it.
Aminatou: You -- like I've heard you talk about the fact that your immediate reaction to that sentencing was feeling humiliation.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: And that was again another thing that it's so . . . it's just like a gut punch because for people who have been sexually assaulted that's a humiliation that we all know, you know?
Chanel: Yeah, absolutely.
Aminatou: And you know that it makes no sense. It's like when someone else tells you you're like Chanel, that makes no -- like why are you humiliated?
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: But again when it's happening to you it's the first feeling that you reach for.
Chanel: Yes, right. It's like an instinct. And I've talked about how scary it is that if I had listened to the judge, if I had internalized his view of the statement that it didn't have influence or power, and what if I had said like don't release the statement because it's embarrassing, it's melodramatic? Then I would've gone home. I wouldn't have written. You know, who knows where I would be now? When in fact once I released it it turns out millions of people resonate with it and think it's powerful and life-changing.
(30:15)
So that difference of realities is so scary to me that one man could've kept me from connecting with millions of people. Could've kept me from writing a book that is out now that I'm very proud of. And I think it's important to remember in your life maybe it's not a judge but maybe it's someone in your household or someone in your workplace who makes you believe that what you have to say is worthless or doesn't carry weight, you know? Or that you're not talented or that what happens to you doesn't matter. I want you to know that it's not true, that maybe that's the current reality you are in but that's not the truth. That's not the ultimate truth. You know there's another reality where thousands of people know exactly what you're going through, you know? And will benefit from whatever you put out into the world. So it just scares me that I could've never written anything if I had believed the judge, you know, and how he perceived me.
Aminatou: I mean this is what Audre Lorde talks about when she says your silence will not protect you and really thinking about all of the ways that as women we are just told you're supposed to make yourself small. You're not supposed to say what you think.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: But, you know, I'm like if a thing that you're already afraid of has happened to you the only people that silence protects are the people who don't want to face consequences.
Chanel: Totally. Absolutely that's right.
(31:55)
Aminatou: You know you write also a lot about your support system and letting your family and your friends into what is happening with you and I just would love to hear you talk a little bit more about that because, you know, it's like all of it makes sense to me and yet I'm just like wow, you are cracking yourself open every step of this way, you know? And letting people into a place of this kind of deep pain is I think ultimately good but it's also something that's incredibly hard to do.
Chanel: Yeah, totally. I think being open is extremely important. I think the danger of doing it inside a courtroom is that you cry and there's no response, you know? There's no nourishment. And that's really dangerous because then you're sort of trained to feel like this is the treatment you deserve that you can literally wail into a microphone and everyone will just sit in silence. That's really damaging to experience. And, you know, I would say don't be afraid of being open; just make sure you're doing it in a space where you will be nourished and the environment is non-judgmental.
I think one of the things that saved me was when my boyfriend -- if I was . . . you know, I got so angry sometimes I didn't even recognize myself. I even thought it was strange how twisted my mind would get, how loud I would yell. Like it scared me. But he never said "What's wrong with you?" or "You are going crazy." It's almost like he knew I was being consumed by something. You know, like there's a dark cloud that I am trapped inside and it was his job to sift through that cloud and break it up and pull me out of it.
(34:00)
But just to know that whatever you're going through, it's not who you're becoming, it's just a phase that you're transitioning through because of your circumstances. And that the people who love you will continue to see the you that's underneath all the BS that's being loaded onto you.
Aminatou: One of the things that you've been talking about too is how one of the things that you're really scared of is what impact this assault would have on your career.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: And again like, you know, a thing that I'm like I deeply identify with this, but if your friend is telling you all you want to do is hold them and say "This isn't your fault and nothing will have the impact you think it does." But obviously this is very -- like, you know, it's almost like you have to use all of your talents in order to heal yourself.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: And so I'm just like really thinking about where you are at with, you know, it's like work seems like it's going well for you. Here are all of the events that have also brought that to light.
Chanel: Yeah. You know a common feeling after an assault, especially if it's at a party, is you're critiqued for being reckless and you begin to think oh, this is just embarrassing that I was so exposed, that I was so drunk. I will only be seen as irresponsible. You know, someone who can't control themselves or seen as something that's grotesque. That's extremely sad to me.
(35:40)
You know, like you said all I want to do is be like no, I was a half-naked body on the ground. Help her. Cover her up. You know, don't critique her or question her; just like get down on the ground and help her. This is not someone who deserves to be interrogated right now. So learning to extend that compassion towards myself and realizing that yeah, of course I've had sloppy times. Of course I've made mistakes in my life. But I haven't committed crimes and I haven't hurt anyone. You know, it's okay to live a messy life and own up to that and I do but that doesn't mean I don't deserve to have amazing opportunities in the future, that I don't get to do what I wish and use my talents how I want. You know, I still deserve joy in multiple forms and to do as I please. But it took a lot of talking myself back to that and truly believing it and now I finally do.
Aminatou: You know the thing that's really apparent from talking to you and obviously from reading this book is you are so in-touch with your inside voice right?
Chanel: Oh thanks.
Aminatou: And really trusting yourself and trusting your gut. And so I'm just curious where that comes from because I think so many of us are -- and I don't think that it's not to say that you don't have your own self-doubt and all of that stuff, it's very apparent, but at the end of the day you . . . like you say the quiet thing out loud. And so I'm just very curious where you think that comes from and how you learn to trust that voice.
Chanel: Yeah. Well I think, you know, in the book I talk about my mom being a writer which sort of requires an internal life and my dad is a retired therapist. [Laughs] So exploring internal landscapes is natural. You know, mental health isn't something to -- it carries value and depression is not seen as failure, you know? It just seems like part of life. It's all just the experience of being human.
(37:55)
I also think there's so many difficult things we all have to go through. I don't expect anyone to walk around with their head up high all the time. I also think that, you know, being forced to testify and to cry in front of everyone and to relive really personal memories publicly, it was terrible at the time. At the same time after I finished I was sort of like wow, I did it. Like if I can weep and talk about the most private scary things I've ever lived through in a room full of strangers and attorneys then I'll be fine for the rest of my life, you know? I'm okay talking about my anxiety and whatever else. So in a strange way that sort of stripped me of those anxieties. I lived through that and now I feel like wow, I can get through anything.
Aminatou: Since you've written the book and the response has been I'm sure very -- it's just been like a lot for you, I'm like I am watching it from the outside and it seems like a lot but it seems like it's mostly positive and mostly great.
Chanel: Yeah.
Aminatou: I'm just wondering if there's anything that has surprised you.
Chanel: Just that it is going smoothly. I think I was preparing for the worst, like getting ready for interviews I felt like I was preparing for war because in court you feel like you're going into battle and you have to have your guard up. You have to prepare to be shredded. And I think when I was going to reveal my identity that's what I was anticipating and instead I found a lot of people get it. They see me and they understand and they want what's best for me. It's been really amazing to feel and recognize.
(39:55)
You know, I also realized that anyone who's been emotionally or physically abused, your boundaries are often violated and it's been amazing literally re-learning that I can establish boundaries. If I'm in an interview and I feel uncomfortable I can just say stop, I'm done. I can walk out. I can say "I don't wish to talk about that. I don't wish to disclose that." And just having that control, reminding myself that this is how life is meant to be. You're supposed to have agency. People aren't allowed to just ask you anything and grill you on anything. You are in control of your life. It's been . . . it's surprising to me how much I forgot that when I was going through everything and just wonderful to have restored that even over the last two or three months. And I'm really grateful to people who are reading the book because I know it can be difficult to immerse yourself in this subject matter, that it can bring up personal memories that you may not want to revisit. So I love when I see people saying "I'm reading but I'm taking breaks." That to me is saying you're listening to your body. You're going slowly as you need. You're stepping away and remembering that you have the power to step away, that you can go outside and have a cup of tea. That no one's going to force you through reliving everything. I love that people are immersing themselves at their own pace and hopefully coming out of the book a little more clearheaded and freed from the shame that we all learn and then slowly un-learn.
Aminatou: That's a great way to put that.
Chanel: [Laughs] Yeah.
(41:55)
Aminatou: I just, I don't know, I'm feeling just very tinder because I remember exactly where I was and how it was to read your statement and I had a friend call me because we both needed to cry about it on the phone. And you're just someone that I've thought about you a lot and that same friend was the friend who sent me a link to the fact that you were like we knew who you were now and you had written a book. And so it's kind of like a very full-circle kind of moment but I guess I just want to say it's nice to meet you Chanel Miller. You are lovely.
Chanel: Thanks so much Amina. I've loved all your questions today. They've been so thoughtful and haven't required too much rehashing of the technicalities of the assault and I love when the conversation can shift to greater picture and feelings and emotional themes so I really appreciate it.
Aminatou: You are the best. Thank you so much for telling your story. I think it's a huge kindness that you have done because there is just something so -- you know, like so healing about hearing the specifics of one person's story. And I know that it takes a lot. That comes at a cost for you and so I don't think that that's lost on anybody who reads this book or is invested in your story but thank you so much.
Chanel: Thank you Amina for creating a thoughtful and nurturing platform for these stories.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You know, we're okay.
[Interview Ends]
Ann: Extra special thanks to Jordan Baley for producing this episode.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf where Sophie Carter-Kahn does all of our social. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.