Third Eye Wide Open
3/16/18 - Slump days, ethical travel, and the dominatrix who makes her clients read black feminist theory. Sex workers say a bill meant to stop child trafficking would do more harm than good. Artist Patti Maciesz is invoicing her reps for all her unpaid work: childcare, missed opportunities, emotional labor and all. Plus, that time Amina coverted a Trump voter at the resort bar in Jamaica.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Meet The Dominatrix Who Requires The Men Who Hire Her To Read Black Feminist Theory
Nichole Perkins on learning to love her dominant side
Sex workers on SESTA
True cause of the gender pay gap
The fastest-growing wage gap is between white women and WOC
TRANSCRIPT: THIRD EYE WIDE OPEN
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda why it's so hard to take a woke vacation, the dominatrix who requires the men who hire her to read black feminist theory, new legislation promises to end sex trafficking but actually endangers sex workers, and an artist on her efforts to build the patriarchy for all of her emotional labor and uncompensated hours of household and childcare labor. Plus a bonus story about that time Amina converted a Trump supporter while she was at a bar in Jamaica.
[Theme Song]
(2:25)
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman! How's it going?
Ann: Hey, hey, hey! I'm okay. I'm in like a mid-week slump. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Aww.
Ann: I know people are listening to this on Friday which is not a slumpy day but I truly think that I have some, you know, freelance fire in my loins on Mondays and Fridays I really structure for myself/it's almost the weekend. I don't know. I used to kind of eye roll at office cartoons that are like "Wednesdays, aren't they hard?" or like hump day.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: But I've really come to realize that I relate to that. There's some truth.
Aminatou: Wow, no, it's true. Every day is hard except for the weekend as far as I'm concerned. [Laughter]
Ann: Every day is hard. Yeah.
Aminatou: And even the weekend it's like you know Friday at 10 p.m. is when I start getting the Monday dreads?
Ann: What?
Aminatou: Yeah. I told you about my friend's dad in Texas who always said can't take the stink off of Sunday. It's true. Like I don't even like Sunday. Saturday's the only good day in the week as far as I'm concerned.
Ann: See, I feel a little different. I guess I used to feel that way when I've had jobs that have been really frustrating where I felt stuck or where I have been underappreciated, I have had that feeling. But now I'm very, very lucky to have like a job, including this one with you -- ahem -- a job that is . . .
Aminatou: It's not a job, Ann. It's a passion, okay? [Laughs]
(3:45)
Ann: Okay, okay, yeah. A passion we insist on being compensated for, yeah.
Aminatou: I know, it's a job. We just had a meeting before this so it's definitely a job.
Ann: Oh my god, I know. So that feeling you're describing, that like stink on a Sunday I definitely have related to but my freelance mode is more like I have really big ambitions for the week. I'm not someone who necessarily stacks a to-do list but I truly believe that every week is going to be the week where I'm like yes, I really did the thing that I super wanted to do and I checked it off my list exactly how I wanted, got fulfilling writing done, and I saw my friends and whatever. I really -- I am very much a Monday optimist and I'm excited to wake up and work on Monday. And I think my mid-week slump is just reality. Just like coming to terms with the fact that not everything can be as I've perfectly envisioned it.
(4:33)
Aminatou: Yeah, that's real. It feels easy for me right now because the only thing that I'm doing is this podcast. [Laughs] As the CEO of my own cancer. The only time that I have to check email or check in for work is about the podcast, and the podcast is fun so it doesn't feel like work. And also let's be real: I'm the delinquent one. Every time we come to a meeting I'm like "Oh yeah, I haven't done any of my work. I haven't done anything." And you and Gina are the most . . .
Ann: "I've been busy getting healthy after a major surgery and like being CEO of my own illness." You know, we know.
Aminatou: But like -- but also I'm taking advantage of it a little bit so this is like me coming clean and being honest about it.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: Before I got sick I worked so hard and I always thought that like work was my life or whatever. And now I'm like oh, I'm definitely in a Tuesdays with Morrie kind of place where when I found out that I was sick work was the last thing on my mind, even though I'd still got bills to pay.
Ann: I mean . . .
Aminatou: But I am truly shocked at how nonchalant I'm being about work. It's almost like having an out-of-body experience.
Ann: I mean "I wish I hadn't worked so hard" is like the number two death bed regret so it like . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs] True, Tuesdays with Morrie!
Ann: I like -- 100% Tuesdays with Morrying. Yeah. It makes sense.
(6:00)
Aminatou: It's so real. And now I'm like wow, I'm really glad I found this out at 32 and not at 82.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: So all I'm saying is I just need to win the lottery because if I could not work for the rest of my life 100% I would do it.
Ann: Listen, we've already discussed how I would become a woman in a really luxurious gold silk caftan who's only organizing charitable events. That's what I would be. I would be like a kept philanthropist woman.
Aminatou: No, I only want to do GoFundMe philanthropy. Go through the website once a day, something catches my eye, and I give them my credit card. I'm like I'm not even trying to setup a foundation. But, you know, I was just in Jamaica.
Ann: Ooh.
Aminatou: Speaking of relaxing hard. And oh my god I can't believe I had never been to Jamaica. I had such a good time.
Ann: I have never been to Jamaica although I did do a fifth grade country report on Jamaica. God knows what that included but I was interviewed on the local news about it at some sort of fair.
Aminatou: What?
Ann: I know.
Aminatou: We have to find this clip. We have to find this clip.
Ann: We definitely -- it's going to be so offensive. I can't even tell you whatever -- whatever I did for school on the economy of Jamaica talking about bananas or something. Like totally off-point.
Aminatou: My god.
Ann: Yeah, so . . .
Aminatou: It's because whenever I want to relax I always head west and then I was like I can't handle going to California. What's happening east side?
Ann: What's happening on an island? Yeah.
Aminatou: And it was my really good friend Shawnee's b-day. She's from Jamaica and she was like let's go to Jamaica. Five minutes into me being in Jamaica I had turned into the ultimate tourist.
Ann: [Laughs]
(7:42)
Aminatou: I was like somebody please braid my hair. Where can I get a Jamaican Me Crazy t-shirt? It was like this place is legit paradise. I cannot believe it took me so long and had a blast. It was amazing.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: I stayed at a resort. Have we talked about this, how I've been a resort snob my whole life because I'm like ugh, who stays at a resort? You've got to go out and meet the locals or whatever. Lies.
Ann: I mean what part of all-inclusive is not attractive to you? [Laughs]
Aminatou: Listen, I don't know what. And then I was in this all-inclusive resort. Granted we did leave because, you know, still got to meet the locals. I am never not 100% inclusive resorting the rest of my life.
Ann: Good to know for our future travel together.
Aminatou: It's good. Honestly the reason I'd never been to Jamaica is because there's something like -- I've always felt like very uneasy about doing luxury tourism in the Caribbean because it's so . . . there's something that seems very exploitive about it.
Ann: Right, like who is benefiting from this tourist wealth sort of thing? Yeah.
Aminatou: Totally, trust. And so, you know, I'm just like I'm going to go spend my money in a different kind of exploitive thing that doesn't hit me as hard. Also you can definitely tell they do not get a lot of just single black women vacationing there a ton and so I got to have some real talks with a lot of people who work there. And it was really interesting how they feel about it differently and they're just like this is just a job for us, you know? So you don't need to be performatively black angry about it. [Laughs]
Ann: Whoa, yeah.
Aminatou: I had a blast. I still, you know, got to think about colonialism. [Laughs] So it's . . .
Ann: When are we not?
Aminatou: Right. Like, you know, taking woke vacations is hard. But also realizing I like spending my money in majority black countries, I feel like I'm doing a good thing, and so thinking about my vacations that way. I just love meeting black people from other parts of the world where I'm like whoa, we have so much in common and then here's what's different is awesome. So I highly recommend Jamaica. The weed is plentiful and delightful.
Ann: [Laughs]
(9:54)
Aminatou: Everybody is chill. It's like every stereotype you have of Jamaica is true: the people are wonderful. It is very chill. The water is very blue and warm. I'm into extreme sports now. I got to go parasailing so you can't tell me nothing and it's awesome.
Ann: Ugh, you deserve it boo-boo.
Aminatou: [Laughs] One day. One day I have to go back into the real world. It'll be fine.
Ann: I know I already told you this but I want -- there's like a photo of you parasailing where the expression on your face is like . . . it's not just joy but it's like shock at how much joy you're feeling.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I think you mean that's called fear Ann.
Ann: No way. It's definitely some kind of shock joy and I'm like -- I have already made it the avatar for you every time you call me or text me across platforms.
Aminatou: Oh my god, Jamaican me crazy! [Laughter]
[Music]
Aminatou: Okay, what's going on today on Call Your Girlfriend?
Ann: Tell me -- tell me what is the best thing you've seen on the Internet this week.
Aminatou: Okay, so it's definitely old but I don't care. I have cancer so news comes to me late. [Laughs] How obnoxious am I being? I love it! I love it! And if you're annoyed by me you should feel a little bit bad. [Laughs]
(12:00)
Ann: I just pictured -- when you said that I pictured the you on the parasail face, like hi!
Aminatou: Ah! Okay, so I was watching my favorite morning TV show AM2DM on BuzzFeed at 10 a.m. every day, or Monday through Friday. They were interviewing this amazing woman who is a dominatrix who requires the men who hire her to read black feminist theory.
Ann: Right. She is a black woman, correct?
Aminatou: Yes. Her name is Mistress Velvet and so people hire her to be their dom, so that means the person who takes the dominant role in a dominant/submissive relationship or arrangement. And she says most of her clients are white cis-gender men who I'm like whoa, that's fascinating. And it's so interesting to hear her talk about her work because at first she was like "Ugh, I don't know if I have kind of the temperament to do this." And then she started finding the work personally rewarding. Also over time Mistress Velvet basically started realizing she was doing a lot of theorizing about the power dynamic of a black woman holding that kind of supremacy over a white cis gender guy. And my mind was blown. I was just like whoa, this is amazing. And so she started introducing black feminist theory into her sessions with clients because that was the thing to do. Also she's smart and woke, and her clients loved it.
Ann: I love that. Like that is . . .
Aminatou: Isn't that fascinating?
Ann: That is the twist ending of this story that her white cis male clients were like "Yeah, I'm into it. I do want to learn about all of this."
Aminatou: Yeah. It was so fascinating, you know? She was having them read like Audre Lorde, Patricia Hill Collins, really doing the lord's work of educating white men. But also having them respond to that kind of framework, that has to be very, very, very rewarding.
(14:00)
Ann: Yeah. And I also found myself wondering while I was listening to her how the sexual dynamic she has with her clients, or the dynamic she has with her clients perhaps makes them more primed or more willing to read this than like, you know, people out in the general world who are not like "Hey black women, I'm wanting to take my cues from you." She's reaching a group of people who are definitely like, you know, I'm here to do what I want you to do. And she's like "Guess what I want you to do?" I love it. I love it.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know? And she talks -- like a lot of her work really is about like reminding people that that stereotype of the black woman as a Jezebel is rooted in so much bullshit, right? And it's definitely a historical phenomenon that black women throughout history have had to deal with. And she just basically exposes the roots, exposes why it's problematic, and she talks about BDSM as healing for black women which is something I'd never considered before because she says that BDSM is a space where you can work through a lot of the stuff that she experiences as a black woman and really makes that kind of space. So she asks all the questions about what kinds of benefits does this have for my life? What does it mean when a black woman is dominant over a white man? It's so fascinating. So some of the reading that she recommends is Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde, The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander, The Black Body in Ecstasy by Jennifer Nash, The Color of Kink by Ariane Cruz, and selections from the anthology This Bridge Called My Back. It does not get more black feminist than that. [Laughter] I'm like these are all of the hits.
(15:45)
Ann: Yeah. And I also wanted to point to Nicole Perkins who interviewed Mistress Velvet for . . . I believe she did the AM2DM interview, right? Yes.
Aminatou: Yes, she did. Nicole has written about her own experience with BDSM.
Ann: Years ago. Like I remember reading her essay. Like her essay about race and BDSM is one of the first times I really had my mind blown on this topic.
(16:05)
Aminatou: All of this to say that I really appreciate Mistress Velvet because I feel like for the first time in a long time I've learned something and I was really moved by hearing somebody talk about their own experience with sex work and with black feminist theory and just working through your own pain in this kind of relationship and it's just really awesome.
Ann: It also is sort of newsy on point because I have been reading a lot -- I don't know if you've been following SESTA as it moves through Congress. Are you familiar with this bill? Yeah. SESTA is the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act of 2017. It has passed the house and is moving towards a Senate vote and it's noteworthy because it has a lot of celebrity support. There's like a PSA that features Seth Meyers and Amy Schumer and other celebrities. But basically the bill would make websites criminally liable for hosting content linked to trafficking sex. It's kind of framed as this way for states to protect victims of sex trafficking and reading this essay by Alana Massey in Alure who is a former sex worker, she breaks it down this way: "The problem is that these bills target websites that are wildly and inaccurately believed to be hubs of trafficking when it is precisely those websites that enable people in the sex trades to do their work safely and independently and at the same time as they make it easier for authorities to find and investigate possible trafficking cases."
So basically she's saying that by shutting down the places where workers advertise their services and also where people are legitimately doing bad stuff like trafficking the authorities are making it harder both on sex workers and also harder on themselves in terms of finding people who are actually perpetrating this bad behavior. So it's kind of like rather than ending sex trafficking or fighting online sex trafficking which is the way the legislation is framed and which is the way the celebrity supporters are framing it it is in fact pushing it further underground or pushing it away from places where sex workers can have some more control. So I don't know. I mean it's one of those cases where -- and I think about this a lot, we've talked about it with Me Too, where it's like who are you listening to when it comes to responses to big, systemic problems?
Aminatou: Yeah.
(18:30)
Ann: I have no idea who the people who wrote this legislation are talking to but from what I have read a lot of people who are actually engaged in sex work are saying this is not making us safer. This is not making us more connected to resources. This is making it easier to exploit us and therefore having the opposite of the intended effect.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know? And this is actually also an online speech issue, right? In the sense that you're silencing a lot of legitimate online speech. And it's interesting to me whose censorship we care about the most but here are a lot of people saying that you're shutting down the online spaces that they are in and making them more vulnerable. There is something about preserving the Internet as a place where everybody can gather, learn, share ideas even if they're super controversial. I would say that sex work falls under that controversial one but Congress finds it really easy to just censor the speech of sex workers because they're not as important, I don't know, as gun owners or something. And I think if you're somebody who cares about an open and good Internet this is an issue that you should think about a lot whether you agree or like sex work or not because it has repercussions in so many other areas of media.
(19:45)
Ann: Right. Yeah, and it definitely deals with -- like this legislation would affect the Communications Decency Act so it's like 100% squarely in that free speech conversation. Alana Massie makes this point so well that the bill covers the exact places where sex workers are sharing information about dangerous clients, are finding emergency housing, are getting recommendations for service providers who are friendly to sex workers. You know, and building community. These are places where they're not just advertising to potential clients, they are building community with each other. And I think that idea too of shutting down peer-to-peer resource sharing, like historically it's not like the government does a great job of being like "Here are the resources you actually need."
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Or "Here is a way to stay safe for people in these professions."
Aminatou: Right. I mean this is why you need to keep your third eye wide open, right? Because it's not like Congress is saying that those people can't gather and talk and share this information; what they're saying is they're going to scare the online platforms into censoring the users themselves. So all online platforms are enabled by a law that's called Section 230. Section 230 is what protects online platforms from liability from some types of speech, right? So it's basically why Twitter can get away with Nazis on their platform all the time. But to be fair without Section 230 social media would not exist at all because it would mean that Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, they're all liable for everything that we say which is not a way to build a for-profit business right? But at the same time there are a ton of non-profits and community-based online groups that serve as these kind of crucial outlets for knowledge sharing.
And so whoever wrote this bill knows exactly what they're doing because it's really easy to go to all of -- to go to these big companies or even to the non-profits and cut them at the legs instead of interacting with the users at all which is just another way of saying we don't give a shit about sex workers. And that's who you should be listening to if you're saying that's who you're trying to protect.
(21:55)
Ann: Right. The nation's largest network of anti-trafficking organizations which is called the Freedom Network is like don't do this, this is a bad bill. That's the thing that always blows my mind too, like are you doing a Google celebrities who are part of this PSA? Has someone told you that not just individual sex workers but the nation's largest network of anti-trafficking organizations is against this? So to your point about this is the same thing that allows Twitter to be chill with tweets by Nazis the difference is the federal government is not stepping in to say "Twitter, you can't allow Nazi tweets." That's something that users would like Twitter to do as a company policy.
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: Which is very different from the government being like "We're going to control what you can and cannot say." Yeah.
Aminatou: Right. Exactly. And it's also very important to think about when we talk about free speech it's like who gets to enjoy the full benefits of free speech? And what we see over and over again is when marginalized communities clamor for their free speech rights everybody says "Sorry, that's not going to work for us."
Ann: Yeah, totally. So it's a great time to tell your senators that you are not cool with SESTA and yeah. And also if you're friends with Amy Schumer maybe point this out to her. I don't know, I'm like what are you doing? What are you doing? Ugh.
Aminatou: Right. And you can go to stopsesta.org to sign a petition. The other thing is I guarantee you that your Congress person was also sold to this as an anti-trafficking good thing to do and has not really looked at the fine print of what this does and what it means.
Ann: Yeah. I mean it's exactly the kind of thing that seems like an unobjectionable vote, like who is for child sex trafficking? Like literally no one, right? So it's such a no-brainer like I'm easily going to vote for this if you don't think harder about what it's actually doing and to whom.
[Music and Ads]
(26:46)
Ann: So I ran across an art project on the Internet from this woman named Patti Maciesz who has been doing something that I know we are both squarely interested in which is she is invoicing the patriarchy for all of her unpaid hours of work in childcare, household labor, emotional labor, pretty much all the stuff that is traditionally defined as gendered labor and is not compensated by capitalism. She's been like faxing these kind of hand-painted invoices to the people who represent her in Congress tallying the hours that she spent on all of this without paid compensation.
Aminatou: This is amazing. I can't wait to listen to this.
Ann: So I will let her talk about it, and also I confess -- I'm going to tell you this now up front -- but I was a little bit worried because she is a white woman in the east bay and I was like uh-oh, is this going to be a conversation about childcare burden and the wage gap that does not take into account things like race which are a huge defining factor in who is compensated and how? But to my great delight and surprise Patti is thinking of all of that so here's our conversation.
[Interview Starts]
(28:00)
Ann: Patti thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Patti: So happy to be talking to you.
Ann: I had to talk to you when I heard about this project you're doing called Invoice the Patriarchy. I wonder if you can tell me and tell our listeners what that's all about?
Patti: Yeah. So there are two basic components to the Invoice the Patriarchy project. One of them is the actual art making part of it, so what I do is I keep track of the hours that I spend on childcare and I make these time card paintings based on my baby's activities. So I have a 15-month-old son at home and I've been doing this for about a year. And the second component is how I share the information with the world and that's where we get into the invoicing part. And basically the idea came from a practice that I had when I was a freelancer, like graphic design and websites and stuff, where if I did free work for somebody I would still send them an invoice even if it was like family just to be like "Hey, FYI, my time has value and I made you this website but it would've cost you a thousand dollars." Which is maybe a little passive-aggressive now that I'm saying it out loud but it's like a way to sort of show my value.
So what I wanted to do with this project was show my work, show my value to the patriarchy. So I started to tally up these hours and create painted invoices and painted cover sheets and I would actually fax them to different government officials. Since the patriarchy is whack and outdated I wanted to use a horrible way to communicate so paintings are made with red ink on big paper and what I actually sent to them is just photos of it. So they get a fax that is maybe 10 pages long that includes the amount of hours that I spent on childcare. I charge Oakland minimum wage so that's 13 -- around 13 dollars an hour, how many hours I spent during that pay period, and I include things, sort of jokey things in the line item that you would include in an invoice like the opportunity cost, other invisible "women's work" that I've done like housework and emotional labor. I'm just sort of trying to paint a picture of like hey, I know everybody thinks that I don't exist anymore in the world because I'm a stay-at-home mom now but actually I'm contributing to society in this really positive way. So I'm sort of using . . . I'm using the tools of our reality to try to communicate with our reality if that makes sense.
(30:50)
Ann: Yeah. One of the line items that really gave me pause when looking at these was the opportunity cost of staying home which you quantify as infinity. [Laughs]
Patti: Yeah, yeah.
Ann: Maybe you can talk about that one a little too.
Patti: I think about that like every hour and especially becoming a mom there's so many moments of sitting in this weird position watching this child sleep for two hours. I'm trapped. I can't move. Like you can't help but think about all the other things you would rather be doing. Even if I love my son so much at some point you're like wow, I could be out networking or trying to pursue my career in this way. I could be researching something. I could be reading a book. There's so many things that I didn't expect about motherhood that kind of make you really trapped in the in some ways beautiful presence of childcare that you're just, you know, on the ground on all fours hanging out with the baby which is beautiful. But there are so many other things that I'm not able to do. And I'm really lucky in that I have a super supportive partner but there is a part of me that I wanted to sort of show him that okay, you've been at work all day? Well so have I. Neither of those is more valuable than the other, they're equal parts important, and in fact me doing it enables him to do his work.
(32:15)
60% of Americans think that a child is better off if there's a parent at home and 65% of those respondents were men and 55 were women. So it's like more men think that children are better off at home but such a small percent, 10.5 million stay-at-home parents, are women and 1.5 are men. It's one of those things that makes it really clear to me that wow, the patriarchy really is real. There's this pressure to stay home and do this work and it's invisible and pervasive. This project satisfies a lot of those feelings for me of being able to articulate first of all hey, I exist. I'm not invisible. It just felt like this was a time for me to no longer just be an artist working in her studio but that I really had to make my voice heard and especially for other women out there who are in a much less privileged place than I am which maybe don't have a choice to stay at home which a lot of women don't who are the sole bread winners, who are living -- I think 34% of stay at home parents are living in poverty. I think it's a way for me to kind of shine a light on this as something that people just assume is the way life is and the way things are and to just be like no, this is a choice that every family has to make and a lot of times it's economically-driven so let's give it an actual economic value because it does contribute to our society so much, all the invisible work that childcare workers do which I now appreciate that I'm doing it. [Laughs]
(34:00)
Ann: Yeah, I was actually going to say something to that effect which is that when we don't value this type of labor when it's performed by maybe the biological or the parents of particularly young children then it's also difficult to appropriately value it when you are paying someone in a care-giving role, right? I think it's no coincidence that this country which has such deplorable access to childcare is also uniquely terrible at paying those professionals, right? The idea that your labor as a parent is undervalued is directly connected to poor payment and conditions for childcare workers.
Aminatou: Yeah. And it's really interesting too because what I chose to do was pay myself the Oakland minimum wage which like I said is $13 which is nationally way ahead of seven of eight dollars which is what a lot of childcare workers are making. You know, it's rare that you find people that are really into paying well for childcare and I've even had to sort of check myself where I'm doing this project and the only way that I can -- by the way the irony of this is the only way that I can do an art project about childcare and talk to you about childcare without a baby shoving his hand in my mouth is because I'm paying somebody right now to perform childcare, right?
Aminatou: [Laughs] Right. I want to talk about hard numbers in terms of were you surprised by the number of hours? Obviously anyone who has spent a full day caring for a young child understands how exhausting that is, how that really feels like oh my god, that was a full day at the end of the day. But I'm curious about in terms of the logged hours with this project how many you've been logging with each invoice and then also if you've been surprised at how much dollar amount wise you're owed.
(35:52)
Patti: Yeah. So hard numbers wise I didn't count time asleep or Sundays which is some weird leftover Catholic thing. I don't even know what I did that. I'm just like oh, I'm not going to count Sundays. I don't know. [Laughter] Since around the time I started which was a little bit after the women's march until the end of 2017 I calculated around 5,600 hours of time providing childcare which if I was paid the Oakland minimum wage currently would be around $75,000. So I was surprised because most childcare workers don't make that much money but probably also aren't working -- you know, there's like an eight hour a day limit where I was working more like 16 hour days or 18 hour days depending on how much my child was or was not sleeping.
In 2018 I made a New Year's resolution to lean into motherhood and to really go for it because so many people when I was posting it were actually like "Oh, you should charge more. You're undercutting yourself, you know? Isn't that the whole point of this project is to show how you have value? Shouldn't you be paid more for this wonderful work you're doing for this growing child"
Ann: That's deep.
Patti: Yeah, right? So what I started -- and it's true. Every time I post one of these invoices I feel terror and shame and everybody is going to be like who is this privileged mom who wants to be paid for being a parent? And I hate her. And I just realized a lot of that is me internalizing the messages of the patriarchy, of just being like shut up, do your job, accept your role, don't complain about it, be grateful that you get to watch your child or whatever. So there is -- it's not like I'm not conflicted about a lot of the things in this project; I'm just pushing through them every time I send one of these invoices out. And what I've decided to do in 2018, my sort of resolution, was to charge for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and to not make these exceptions of when I'm sleeping or not sleeping because the truth is if I had a night nurse which I guess is a thing that people do . . .
Ann: I'm sure Ivanka had one.
(38:05)
Patti: I know, I know. Yeah, which is my one beef with Lean In is I actually think there is a chapter. Well, if you're going to do this and you want to be a C+ executive you should get a night nurse and it's like really Cheryl? Like that's your advice to me is I pay someone 150 to 200 dollars a night to sleep in my one bedroom house with me? I don't understand but whatever. You know, even if I go out all night and my baby is just sleeping somebody would have to be paid to watch him too. So childcare is never-ending in that he can wake up in the middle of the night and be coughing and I'm going to run to his bedside and make sure that he's okay. And I might not go back to sleep that night. So now I think I was able to project just moving forward being like okay, I already know that assuming for the next year I'm going to be doing 24 hours of childcare seven days a week that is going to be upwards of I think $115,000.
Ann: So you said that you've been sending these to the US Senate and to your representatives.
Patti: Yeah.
Ann: Sometimes I really struggle with how has this not become something that we at least minimally subsidize, like our government. I mean we all know the statistics about other developed nations doing the reasonable thing and subsidizing care. I mean how has this changed your perspective on the kind of legislative picture for compensating caregivers fairly and compensating childcare period?
Patti: Yeah, so I've dug in and I've done a lot of research and this project has been incredibly empowering in sort of understanding the machinations of our democracy and our government a little bit better. And part of that is the time that we're in. On election night I literally went to sleep because I was eight months pregnant and went to sleep at like 7 p.m. so I didn't know what was going on. I went to sleep imagining my eight-year-old son asking me "Mama, what's it like having a man president?" and me being like "Oh, son, let me tell you about what that was like." And I just didn't expect the outcome that we had.
(40:20)
And then this year whether it was women's rights or [0:40:23] it's like I definitely felt like I was calling my senators. I knew their names. I had all of these numbers programmed into my phone. So I already felt like this year there was a bit of activism that had awakened in me that wasn't quite present before. I had somebody who was looking at the work and they said "On one hand this feels like really radical feminist stuff but on the other it's just such common sense." What I'm asking for with things like universal childcare, subsidized parental leave, things like that, like you're saying, every other advanced economy does this. Why? Why is this a thing? Why are we having to make a bunch of noise about it?
But what's amazing is even just sharing it in my limited social sphere of just on my Facebook and Instagram people have come up to me, you know? And a lot of times it's dudes and they're like "Wow, I just didn't realize how much work it was and that you don't get to do other stuff while you do this and that yeah, it's not fair. Like you're so smart. You should be acknowledged for this, you know? And it's like yeah, thanks for noticing that but also like go thank your mom or like whatever other invisible women there are in your life.
Ann: Right, and who are you calling in the Senate about this, right? Like yeah.
(41:44)
Patti: Right, right, yeah. The other thing is sort of like trying to figure out -- well unpacking that for myself it's like who is the patriarchy? The first step for that for me was actually sending a letter to myself and being like there are ways that I still can work on, you know, being -- breaking down some of these pressures that I'm under and really understanding what motivates my actions. You know, because you do . . . it's weird, when you have a kid you get a lot of positive reinforcement about being a stay-at-home mom but then also because we're in this careerist place everyone's like "Oh, that's so sad, like you're not able to do other things." It's just really complicated. So I think there is this feeling of anger and blame that I want to place, so when I send it out to the government it's actually because I think that they are in a position, like I -- to do something about it, and people like Elizabeth Warren who at the end of last year, you know, tried to put in some universal childcare into a bill, that stuff is amazing. And I think that any way that we can support by calling senators, and even though I'm sending a bit of an art project I include a normal cover letter that just says "Hey, this is an example of what one stay-at-home mom's experience is. This is why you should legitimately support this as a constituent so that there is some accountability that our government has to provide some services for families."
Ann: Absolutely. So I feel like the answer is what if we all did this? I mean I'm thinking about the possibilities of first of all just having access to that data of how caregivers and particularly full-time caregivers are spending their time. But then also looking at the way you've got an emotional labor line item, what about all of the work that all of us are doing uncompensated for the patriarchy? And picturing a world in which the US Senate is just receiving thousands and thousands of invoices every other week is very heartening to me. [Laughs]
(44:00)
Patti: Yeah, well and it's -- and I've sort of gone outside of that too. Like it's systemic, right? So it's like sending it to all different parts of society. So it's not just government; it's culture. I did one letter that I sent to the media: why do I have to be a mom? I can't -- I have to be hot and skinny and have perfect skin but don't take your boob out ever in public because that's gross. And it's like all of these weird double-standards around that. And then another one to healthcare. It was the day after Erica Garner had passed, just the epidemic of women of color being in legitimate actual danger in our healthcare system. I had a C-section and I cannot overstate just how terrifying it is to hand yourself over to a hospital with complete trust of you and your baby and to just think that so many women are not having that same access as I did is completely terrifying.
You know, that means I had to sit down and write a letter to my son, to my husband, to my father, you know? Like to people in my family. And it definitely made for some awkward Thanksgiving conversations because I'm really trying to call out all aspects of how this is touching our lives and sometimes it can feel a little endless.
Ann: [Laughs] Well we see you and we appreciate you and I wish I could -- I wish I had the money in my pocket to foot this bill but you know, again, it's not billed to me. [Laughs] I'm with you. If listeners want to participate or check out your invoices we'll link to your website but is there an easy Instagram follow? Or maybe you can repeat the hashtag.
Patti: Yeah, so it's just hashtag #BillThePatriarchy and I definitely encourage you whether it's just to write it down and start keeping track of it and just sharing it, it's been a really empowering process for me. So I am at artpatti.com actually. All of the time cards are available as paintings for sale so you sort of would subsidize two weeks of my motherhood. And I am ArtPatti on Instagram.
Ann: Patti, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Patti: Thank you.
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: Patti! I love it. [Laughs]
Ann: I know. And so since our interview -- she sent me an email -- she has setup a website, billthepatriarchy.com.
Aminatou: Amazing.
Ann: Where you can fill out a quiz to figure out all of the unpaid hours that you have spent contributing towards the world without financial compensation and generate your own invoices. So yeah, help calculate the annual salary you'd be getting if you -- if all of your labor were compensated.
Aminatou: This is amazing. I can't wait to take the quiz. Did I tell you about the one emotional labor that I did in Jamaica?
Ann: Oh my god, tell me.
(46:55)
Aminatou: I spoke to a Trump voter.
Ann: [Gasps] On vacation?
Aminatou: Oh my god. On vacation. On vacation. Here's how it all transpired. There was this couple staying at the resort where we'd had like funny moments in passing with the mom -- with mom. With the wife a couple of times, because there was a rainstorm or whatever. You know, you just become like resort friendly with someone. [Laughs] And the next day at happy hour Shawnee and I happened to sit next to them again and for resort reasons got resort drunk with them. And it was a great time. They were telling us about their life back home. They're from Long Island. And, you know, they could've presented themselves as these cool, hip people. They told us how they met and their meet cute was amazing, like all this stuff. And then we started discussing their daughter. They told us basically that their daughter is dating a trans person whose pronouns are they and how hard that's been kind of adjusting to and they were wondering if it was like a generational thing.
(48:05)
And so Shawnee and I were explaining to them that actually it is generational but the gap is definitely smaller than they think because I think that even for people our age we are just now wrapping our mind around the language and the vocabulary and all that stuff, right? Like the kids are amazing. The kids have it figured out and we need to trust the kids.
Ann: And how old is this couple by the way? Like 50s or something?
Aminatou: They're in their 50s. They're in their 50s. Mid-50s definitely.
Ann: Okay.
Aminatou: And, you know, then they started talking about how their daughter, she was really uncomfortable about bringing her partner home for a holiday and they don't understand why because they are super cool with it and they just wish she'd opened up more to them or whatever. The advice we were giving them was give her some time. Being in your 20s is all about figuring it out and blah, blah, blah. And it was asking more questions, right? Because my third eye is wide open. And then it turns out they were like "Yeah, some of our family has voted for Trump." And, you know, who doesn't have some family who voted for Trump right?
Ann: I mean these people are obviously white, right? Yeah.
Aminatou: Of course. Of course. Of course. Oh, you know, some people voted for Trump but they framed it as it was other members of the family, right? And I was like well, you know, that can also be it. And then we got into this conversation where I was trying to explain to them that for younger people and for people from marginalized communities politics feel very personal. I was like I'm sure that your wife feels that way -- at this point I was talking to the husband -- I was like "I'm sure that your wife feels this way," because he had said how he was pro-choice but he's pro-guns. And I was like yeah, whatever, that does not seem nuts. Then conversation shifts from that. They're really outdoorsy and so I was telling them about my favorite parks and how I love the National Park Service, it's amazing, and how I'm really worried about the park service because of this administration. He 100% agrees. He's like "Me too. I can't believe I voted for that guy. I wouldn't do it again." And I was like what?
Ann: Oh my god. [Laughter]
(50:05)
Aminatou: I was like excuse me? I have had three daiquiris with you. [Laughs]
Ann: Wow, wow, wow.
Aminatou: You are what? And then he saw the look on my face and he wanted to get a little squirly about it. And I was like no, let's talk about it. Like what didn't you like about Hillary Clinton? And he told me that she was a crook. You know, all the talking points. And I was like well, this president is a crook also. And we started going through the checklists. I was like his kids, whatever. And he was like "Yeah, but somehow I could stomach that more."
Ann: Oh wow.
Aminatou: But I appreciated the honesty.
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And then earlier in our conversation he had called himself a libertarian and I'm like here are all the ways he's not a libertarian.
Ann: Totally.
Aminatou: And then at some point it starts dawning on him. He's like "You're right, the standard is harder for her." And then he says -- Ann, and this is where I almost fell off my stool -- he's like "It was harder for Obama too because minorities have to work harder."
Ann: [Gasps]
Aminatou: And I was like minorities have to work harder to get your vote? This is bananas! And I'm basically approaching him like listen. It was the first time. I'm really feeling like who's that New York Times reporter who's always talking to people in taxis, you know? And that's his whole shtick.
Ann: Thomas Friedman. Yeah, no relation to yours truly. Yeah.
Aminatou: Thomas Friedman. Yeah, that guy. Yeah. I was feeling like Thomas Friedman being like oh my god, extrapolating all this Trump data from this person.
Ann: You were like Tommy Fritos mode on vacation.
Aminatou: I was really like "Listen, I like you and your wife. I generally only like good people. It is blowing my mind that you're not the monsters I thought you would be. But mostly," I was like "But mostly you sound like a very reasonable and smart person and this is not a thing that a smart person would say."
Ann: Did you say that?
Aminatou: I don't even -- yeah, I said that to him. I was like I don't want to get into your biases or whatever because I know what I think. But mostly I'm like wow, here is an incredibly smart person, and he is -- he's like a genius -- who is like a smart person who did this very dumb thing with their vote. And then I brought it back to his daughter and I was like "Don't you think maybe this explains why your daughter is reluctant and all these things?" And I was like "I'm sorry, can I ask you a very personal question?" And he was like "Yeah." Even the bartenders were like holding their breath at this point.
Ann: Oh my god.
(52:15)
Aminatou: And I was like "How do you feel about voting for somebody who doesn't believe in the full humanity of your child?" And this is where he blew my mind where he said "You know, it hadn't occurred to me because it doesn't affect me personally."
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: And I was like "Yeah, but it affects your child." And he just hadn't thought about it. And I was like well, a famous proverb says that the political is personal. [Laughs]
Ann: Ancient feminist proverb.
Aminatou: An ancient feminist proverb. And it just really blew my mind. And we went into this conversation of -- I told him, I was like yeah, because he was complaining about how the economy was bad and all these things. And I was like "Well," I was like "Sir, I'm a black woman. Those things have always been bad and I just learned how to deal with it. Do you think maybe it's harder for you because this is the first time in your life that you're confronted with the fact that life is not great?" [Laughs] And he said yes and we had a legit conversation.
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: Like he regretted his vote. He wouldn't do it again. His wife was trying not to engage at all because she was like "Oh god, here we go," you know? And I was like yep, classic white lady behavior. They were both great though. I was like I really enjoyed them. I really enjoyed talking to them. And the lesson that I learned is you can't take people's description of who they are for what it really is, you know? You have to go a little deeper. Because they really thought of themselves as these cool, rad, liberal hippies. [Laughs] And I was like no.
Ann: Where were they from out of curiosity?
Aminatou: Long Island which is not shocking. [Laughs]
(53:45)
Ann: I mean because sometimes it is relative, like sometimes our reactionary conservative is another neighborhood's super-liberal hippie, you know? It's all based on what your context is.
Aminatou: I know, but you know, here's this guy married to this loud, brash woman who would call herself a feminist. He's very pro-choice. You know, all these things. And I was like yeah, but that's not the sum total of who you are.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: And also what you say your politics are has to reflect in how you vote. But also it was really fascinating for me but I definitely really enjoyed them. And I was like white ladies, talk to your dads because otherwise I've got to interrupt my vacation to talk to your dads. This is wild! This is wild.
Ann: But also there's something about not knowing what the dynamic is with his daughter and exactly where -- what's going on in her life and what's going on with their relationship. Like sometimes this is the kind of thing you do need to hear from a stranger or someone who you don't . . . it's an interesting like -- obviously we should all be training with relatives and strangers, like definitely, but sometimes three daiquiris in in Jamaica talking to a stranger who seems fun, smart, and interesting as you invariably do is a little different than trying to make a connection with someone in your family who you have a script about and they have a script about you.
Aminatou: I 100% agree with that. And some of the grievances that he had too I was like no, I hear you, and here are ways the DNC is really bad at messaging to people like you. I think that's a very fair grievance to have. And yeah, the world is changing really fast. If I was at the top too I would probably be very concerned. We had a whole -- we had a delightful time. There was no yelling or screaming. The night ended great. I felt like we both left like we had heard the other person. And I'm like you know, in this life all we can give each other is information so I'm okay.
Ann: [Laughs] Life quest. I mean I am grateful and proud of you for spending your vacation to do that. Also was Shawnee sitting there the whole time? Because I feel like . . .
(55:50)
Aminatou: Oh, Shawnee was sitting there and Shawnee was like -- she's like "I represent the liberal media elite." [Laughs] But she was also just like watching and her and the wife were having their side conversation. It was very -- it was very cute. The next day the bartenders gave me free rounds of drinks.
Ann: Yeah they did. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Because they were like "Thank you for talking to that man." And I was like I know.
Ann: Boom!
Aminatou: It was great.
Ann: Once again so grateful to have you out and about in the world.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Everybody talk to a Trump voter this week without yelling. Maybe it'll help.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: It certainly helps that you don't know that they're Trump voters when you start hanging out with them.
Ann: For sure, the sneak attack where they're like "I'm super liberal!" Oh wait, guess what?
Aminatou: Ann, I was in shock, like full body shock. I was about to ask these people if they want to go sailing with me and now you're telling me they are my enemy? What?
Ann: Wow, wow, wow.
Aminatou: It's all good. It's all good.
Ann: Hey, before we go we should do a reminder. Give blood. If you have not signed up you can find everything at callyourgirlfriend.com/blooddrive. You can also in many cities where the appointments are full walk in on the day-of. Like in San Francisco there were ten people through the course of the day who had appointments and turned up but for various reasons couldn't end up donating. And so if you're kind of on the fence and you haven't gotten a booked-in appointment try turning up and you might get lucky on the day-of, or you can schedule an appointment on your own anywhere in the world and fill out the form on our site to tell us about it and we'll count you towards the effort. We are getting so excited. The L.A. drive is coming up in another week and then after that it's like, oh my god, almost like one every other day.
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: Because they're coming in rapid succession. Anyway, do it. Give blood.
Aminatou: Thank you to everyone who has been hashtag #BleedingForAmina. I cry every time you tweet, email, or write me because I cannot -- I just cannot believe this is happening. Thank you for giving a life-saving gift. It's such an . . . I'm so honored and I can't believe where everybody lives, like all the Australian people that have written in and the Irish ladies and UK represent forever. I just -- I am really . . . I'm in awe of our little community and I love that we can all make a difference this way so thank you.
(58:15)
Ann: 100%. If you meet a Trump-voting stranger at the bar six daiquiris deep maybe bring them to the blood drive and we can all talk to them. [Laughter]
Aminatou: Please don't drink before you donate blood. Drink water.
Ann: Yeah, okay. At the juice bar, LOL.
Aminatou: Right. [Laughs] Throwing back those grass shots.
Ann: Wheat grass shots? Yeah, all of those Trump voters throwing back wheat grass shots. Kale smoothies.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac. See you on the Internet boo-boo!
Ann: See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: Bye.